White crane concepts/principles and the wing chun system

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White crane concepts/principles and the wing chun system

Postby kung fu fighter » Tue Jun 07, 2005 12:54 pm

Hi,
I bought a couple of Dr. Yang Jwing Ming's white crane videos and in one of them he mentioned the 8 angles concept (baat qwa) for the hand techniques on the torso (upper body).

I was wondering What the steps/stances and concepts are for the 8 directional footwork and how is kicking maneouvers integrated into it.

Can you discribe what the exact 8 reference points on the body are or the exact concept to understand where the 8 angles are, and how they are trained in regards to bagua concept on the torso, kicking and on the ground for 8 directional footwork.

What are some of the other widely common ideas in white crane that could be common or relate to the wing chun system ?

Thanks
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Postby David Grantham » Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:21 pm

Hi Navin,
Some very good questions indeed. First the Bagua concept on the torso is basically the same idea as The Bagua concept, or stategies of stepping. The diagonal angles refer to the Four Horizontal golden points of your opponent. ( think two shoulders and two hips, left and right.) then the other sides refer to the minor blocks. (up, down , left and right, think head, groin, spleen, and liver( for reference of position))) Basically you are putting the bagua symbol in front of your opponent's torso. Both repel and cover techniques work for your two upper golden points, while follow carrying and hook leading work for your lower golden points. the movements from there, or strategies are up to you and/or your opponent.
Remember White Crane is pattern based, so you may lead into Chin Na's, wrestling, punching, kicking, etc, etc.. from those blocking patterns.
As far as the stepping strategies, well at the last seminar, Master Yang actually started talking about it. He said there is actually a chart out there with a code for actual strategies but he doesnt know where it is, partially because it is supposed to be one of those secrets not to be released to the outside world. This stepping would of course lead you to the strategies of kicking.By the way, The kicking patterns are shown in the back of the White crane book as well as the White Crane Video 4 yet to be released.
As far as the Wing Chun system, or Yongquan, relaton to White Crane. Many of the ideas are common because that is where Yongquan's roots are. It took out alot of the more complicated body motions of white crane and became more simplified.( disclaimer here- as far as I know) :lol:
I am sure there is more info than I gave but I hope I have answered your questions to some extent.
If anyone else knows of the bagua stepping charts out there I would love to know. Even More important, Master Yang would love to have it for translation.

Hopefully we will see you at a White Crane seminar in the future?! :)
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Postby kung fu fighter » Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:57 pm

Thanks David,
Can someone list what all the white crane principles, theories, and concepts are, as well as a brief discription about their applications in combat. I am interested in cross referencing the principles, concepts, and theories of the wing chun system with those of the southern white crane systems.

It would be nice to see a diagram of what the kicking/footwork Chart looks like.

Thanks
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Postby MidwestMantis » Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:28 pm

Hi, KFF, lots of overlap of YongQuan and White Crane. Just look at the 4 Gates & the 4 Golden Points, the Crane "cover" and the fook sao, the goat clamper stance and the Crane horse stance, the fighting stance of YongQuan and the Seven Star stance of Crane, or even the horizontal fist, inter alia.

There are others but it is late and I need to exercise.
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Postby kung fu fighter » Thu Aug 25, 2005 1:47 pm

Thanks Midwestmantis,
Any other info would be great to hear about. Does anyone else have anything else to add to this.

Thanks agian
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Postby MidwestMantis » Sat Aug 27, 2005 9:53 am

Years ago I had a WC sifu who claimed that Wing Chun was based on geometry and scientific principles, not based on "animals like all that wushu stuff", as if Wing Chun were created in the Engineering Faculty Lounge at MIT or Purdue University and White Crane did not exist. Never had the heart (or guts) to tell him about similarities between Wing Chun and White Crane.

KFF, all kinds of other common ideas, look at the mook yan jong, very craney. Look to the 6.5 pole. Heck, there's even a photo of Dr. Yang with the long pole in RoC. When I first saw the photo years ago, I said out loud, "cool, Dr. Yang studied Wing Chun." Good thing I did not say that in front of him--very embarrassing! :shock:

Have not seen any White Crane guys do the baat jam do (Mother/Son, Willow Leaf, Butterfly, whatever), and would love to see it some day. When I do see this, I'll bet I recongize a lot of the movements! :lol:
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Postby kung fu fighter » Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:49 pm

Hi,
Can you list what all the the white crane principles/thoeries/concepts are, so that I can compare and see for myself what the similarities and differences are.

Thanks in advance
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Postby yat_chum » Thu Sep 01, 2005 9:16 am

Hi KFF, listing all the principles, theories and concepts of White Crane is no mean task as there are several systems within the White Crane style as is the case with Wing Chun (13 systems and counting). I can only talk about the systems of White Crane that I have experienced, which does not include the system taught by Dr. Yang (Ancestral Crane) and I have only experienced the Yip Man Lineage of Wing Chun. The basic principles of the Centreline, Economy of motion and Linking offence with defence are all found in White Crane. The elbows are kept close to the body; the hands do not go beyond the shoulders as it is with Wing Chun. Tan, bong, fook sau that are so important to Wing Chun, are all found in White Crane, however the Chi sau (sticking hands) is different and is closer to the Pushing hands of Tai Chi. The key concepts of Float, Sink, Spit and Swallow are found in both styles all though they are not emphasized in the Yip Man lineage. I can’t think so any more off hand without. But please be free to ask questions.
Have you read The Essence of Shaolin White Crane-Martial Power and Qigong by Dr. Jwing-Ming Yang?
Which system of Wing Chun do you do?
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Postby kung fu fighter » Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:04 am

thanks
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Postby kung fu fighter » Fri Sep 09, 2005 4:38 pm

Hi,
Can you tell me about any white crane theories/principles which are different from the wing chun system and how the are used in combat such as the bagua idea.
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Postby yat_chum » Sun Sep 11, 2005 4:00 am

Hi KKF sorry I can’t help you with the Bagua theory in White Crane because I haven’t done it. But you might be interested to know that Fut Sao Wing Chun has a Bagua form.
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Postby kung fu fighter » Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:00 pm

Yea I know about the fut sao wing chun bagua form. is it the same one that's in the white crane system.
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Postby Walter Wong » Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:49 am

Not that I trained Wing Chun, but just from observation, Wing Chun appears stiffer and more tensed than Master Yang's Ancestral style White Crane. I could be wrong. My impression is also since Wing Chun is from White Crane, Wing Chun seems like a White Crane style that cut some corners to get fighting abilities right away.

Though I do train White Crane with Master Yang, my White Crane isn't that good. Not quite ok either. :P

I did do some Chi Sau with a Wing Chun guy last week. But we're kinda new friends so we both held back some and felt a little shy of smacking each other around. Definitely he was no beginner. He has several years of Wing Chun training next to Philipino Martial Arts. It was interesting and fun. I look foward to doing some more with him next time and tell him this time to not hold back as well as myself to get more of a feel of Wing Chun and White Crane in action. So far we both stuck to each other and snuck in some shots to each other's face and body.
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Postby kung fu fighter » Tue Sep 13, 2005 2:40 pm

Hi,
I have read some where that that fujian white crane contains mederian, plum blossom and bagua footwork patterns. Does anyone know what theories of the white crane footwork is all about?

I have read in the book called complete wing chun about a fujian wing chun style that had forms called fa kuen (variegated fist), lien wan kao da (continuous capture hit), and mui fa baat gwa (plum blossom eight trigrams). Does anyone know what the theories and theme of these forms are about?
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Postby yat_chum » Tue Sep 13, 2005 7:56 pm

From what I recall the Fa Kuen form is found in the systems that are said to have links with the Shaolin monk Chi Sim (one of the fives ancestors), who also has links with Hung Gar. The Fa Kuen form serves as an introduction to using the double knives. Chi Sim Weng Chun (Always spring) boxing is unusual in that the knives were taught from the begining. I believe they even have the saying “The hands become knives and the knives become hands.” I have seen clips of the form, and the stances are like those of Hung Gar. You might find more info at http://home.vtmuseum.org
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Postby kung fu fighter » Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:40 pm

thanks
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Postby kung fu fighter » Wed Sep 21, 2005 3:19 pm

Hi,

What about lien wan kao da (continuous capture hit), and mui fa baat gwa (plum blossom eight trigrams). Does anyone know what the theories and theme of these forms are about?

what's the most important theory or essece of white crane boxing as a combative martial art?

Can someone list what are all the fujian or southern white crane Theories/principles/concepts.
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Postby yat_chum » Thu Sep 22, 2005 11:19 am

I saw a martial arts documentary recently which featured Black Eagle Eskrima. When the Grandmaster of Black Eagle style was asked what the most important thing was, he smiled and replied "just hit'em"
Last edited by yat_chum on Sun Oct 02, 2005 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby scramasax57 » Thu Sep 22, 2005 8:10 pm

excellent.

when discussing theories and strategies, remember that the end goal is always the same: hurt them more than they hurt you.
aka eric hinds, 2nd stripe
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yang's martial arts association

changchuan, baihe, and xingyi
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Postby Walter Wong » Fri Sep 23, 2005 7:56 am

Or you can see it as just keeping them from hurting you whether it be that you inflict injury upon them to make them give up or you evade/do sticking redirecting their attacks/getting out of reach/way all while not stiking/slamming 'em on their head til they tire themselves out and they give up that way and therefore you've kept them from hurting you.

That's one of the things I like about Aikido is that they're not emphasizing at injuring their opponent.
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