Morality, sorta...

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Re: Morality, sorta...

Postby Sanfung » Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:46 pm

To be perfectly honest, I wasn't going to post in this thread. I feared too much that it would end up in a stream of bickering as well, and I care not to hurt anyone. When reading my comments, please keep this in mind. I mean no disrespect to anyone. I should hope we are all friends here.

If I may, I would like to politely refute what Josh was saying before about the Ten Commandments. If they are taken outside of the boundaries of Abrahamic religion, the lines that he was citing still hold some value. While the commands to keep the Sabbath holy and avoid false idols seem to only have weight in Abrahamic faith, they could be seen as still holding some universal truth. People of any faith should surely wish to keep their own practices holy and avoid unsanctioned superstitious behaviors that could be harmful as defined by their own ethical guidelines.

I seldom mention my own religious convictions on the Internet. That usually just ends up in arguing, which I wish to avoid. However, I thought it might actually be productive once to mention them in this thread. I am a practicing member of the Roman Catholic Church in real life. Personally, I have found both the Ten Commandments and the principles of Wude to be very helpful in leading a moral life.

Having read these sorts of comments online for some time now, I'm shocked and dismayed at many individuals who find the philosophy behind internal Chinese martial arts to be incompatible with Christianity. The great Yang style masters Yang Shou-chung and Fu Zhongwen were both Roman Catholics to the best of my knowledge. I highly doubt they would agree that these philosophies are not compatible with one another.

Going back to the original question in this post, I think the reason for Wude is not because these morals are exclusive, but rather because martial artists have no excuse not to espouse them. Everyone has a great deal of responsibility placed on their shoulders, but those in formal training are required to recognize that. Its been established that teachers are required to ensure that their students do not misuse skills imparted to them.

I do hope that my comments have only been constructive.

Edit: I corrected a typographical error.
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Re: Morality, sorta...

Postby Josh Young » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:08 pm

Great insights Sanfung.

I should admit I am biased against Abrahamic religions and it taints my view of them. It is very good to have other opinions on them in this thread from you and others.
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Re: Morality, sorta...

Postby Monsoon » Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:41 am

Going back to the original question in this post, I think the reason for Wude is not because these morals are exclusive, but rather because martial artists have no excuse not to espouse them. Everyone has a great deal of responsibility placed on their shoulders, but those in formal training are required to recognize that. Its been established that teachers are required to ensure that their students do not misuse skills imparted to them.


This!

Was kind of what I had in mind before I engaged my brain and started thinking too much in all sorts of wrong directions :D

Don't you just hate that, when you know what you're trying to say but keeping typing rubbish? Maybe it's just me :roll:

Very interesting points though, sanfung, and (dare I say it) thanks for sharing.

Monsoon
peace and harmony

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Re: Morality, sorta...

Postby Sanfung » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:25 am

No, believe me everyone ends up typing a lot of rubbish at some point in his or her online forum-going careers. That being said, I haven't seen any rubbish come out of you yet! You don't have to worry about that. I find that when you over think what you're going to write, it simply becomes counterproductive. Considering how difficult some of this subject material is, I'm glad that this all came out so respectfully.
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Re: Morality, sorta...

Postby Josh Young » Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:29 am

I don't have much more to add, I like this thread.

On Bushido being nihilistic, there is an aspect of it that I could see being akin to that, where one has no fear for death, even seeks it in a manner, in service of their lord. From one point of view this is being willing to throw your life away, from another it is being willing to give your life for a cause. In a way I can see this as being at odds with morality in general, as it is often found in most cultures, where death is typically avoided in a way.

I did not mean to imply that Christianity is at odds with martial arts morality, I am sorry about that. I think that the teachings of Jesus are actually quite close to Wu De in many ways. I will say that I know a lot of Christians who do not follow Jesus but do follow the Ten commandments in terms of their morality. But I love the two main commandments of Jesus, love the Lord (God) and love thy neighbor, I am not a christian but I do try to follow these teachings.
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Re: Morality, sorta...

Postby Josh Young » Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:55 am

Monsoon wrote:I am happy to be proved wrong time and time again. Why? Because it reminds me of how little I really know, and of how much richness there is still to taste!

Same here. I totally agree. I am constantly learning and being taught by people here, and there, even Gord, whose passion for the internal arts is not hard to appreciate, even when we clash.

And lastly, on the calendar :D , as I am not a scholar of the Bible - or indeed anything else actually - does it really state that God started work (creation) on a specific day? Or is it more a case of 'God started work, we'll call that a monday shall we?"

I can't be counted among the bible scholars, but have studied a lot of it in many ways, including history of how it developed etc.
In the bible it has God starting on Sunday, and this is regarded as the first day of the week. Of course in that telling of creation there was no day before it, so they have it as starting there in totality, I have my doubts about this version of the creation in literal terms, but at the same time if I saw a vision of creation and evolution of life on earth in time lapse I would likely come up a similar version and order.

Back to the week, in terms of the origination and God starting on this day this is also why it became Sunday in our modern terminology, the Sun being central, primal etc, in terms of celestial bodies that can be easily observed. The modern business week starts on Monday, but I do regard Sunday as the first day and the day of the Moon, (monday) as the second.
I feel totally outclassed. I am one of those people that so frequently gets lost in thought, mainly because it is such unfamiliar territory!

Not only are you not outclassed, you display a lot of class, insight and consideration. It is a pleasure to converse with you here. Your demeanor and example illustrate you (in my mind) as an excellent teacher.

On another note, slightly related to the content of this thread:
I realized some time ago I didn't want to have a screen name that was anonymous, though I don't mind them, but I wanted to be held accountable for my thoughts and so chose to share my name with my comments on this and the few other forums and places I participate in. There is something about this for me that is important, it isn't an ego thing so much as an anti-ego thing. When I wrote with a fake name I think I felt too comfortable being someone I was not proud of, it was too easy for me to be a jerk and hide, as it were, behind the anonymity. I am not perfect and have issues and this shows up in my post content, it is my hope I can share content I am not ashamed to put my name by. Still, I have no issues in general with anonymous names , so please don't read into my sharing this as a dismissal or a disregard for them, I am just seeking to share a personal choice and the reasons for it and how it relates to my content. I hope people hold me to my words and correct me when I am being ignorant or rude or otherwise less than what I should be as a participant here or anywhere. I'm still a child in many ways.

I love you my martial brothers.
Thank you.
:D
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Re: Morality, sorta...

Postby Monsoon » Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:05 pm

Maybe we should start a Sycophant Society? :D

I think the calendar branch of the thread has run its course - unless anyone else has something to add.

Regarding, anonymity: that's a very interesting point. It is very easy for people to hide behind a pen-name and thus absolve themselves of any sense of responsibility for what they say and to whom they say it. Similarly, it is pretty easy for people to assume that the use of a pen-name is solely for the purpose of deception. It works both ways really. I tend to use pen-names in various forums in order to avoid certain prejudices that might detract from the discussion process. This includes being too forward with information about my work, my educational level and so on. It's a minefield out there, and unfortunately there are simply too many people who will try to use any leverage they can to cause problems. I could ignore it all I guess, but there comes a point when it is wearisome having to constantly steer a discussion away from the personal and back on topic.

That underpins my reason for choosing anonymity, although I will state for the record that despite this anonymity I do take full responsibility for everything I write, and any inadvertent offence I may cause. In situations where conflict arises, I will often PM the other party and attempt to remedy in private. I usually do so under my real name and expect those messages to have a higher level of confidentiality. So far I have hardly had to do this anywhere, and I would like to believe that this is mainly because I have been lucky enough to find forums in which the denizens are not eager point-scorers.

Anonymity is very much on topic in a thread dealing with morality.
peace and harmony

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Re: Morality, sorta...

Postby Josh Young » Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:28 pm

I completely agree with that Monsoon.
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