Morality, sorta...

Discuss shaolin longfist, white crane or other styles. Theory, practice and applications. Please stay on topic.

Moderators: Dvivid, Inga, nyang

Morality, sorta...

Postby Monsoon » Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:46 am

I really wanted to post this on the other thread about morality but it got locked before I had the chance. Anyway, my point was this: why does anyone (I'm looking specifically at you Dvivid :D ) think that martial morality is any different from the normal kind of morality?

The 'rule' for wude that was put up in the first post of the ill-fated thread are pretty much the exact same morals that I was brought up with outside of any martial background.

Good morality is good morality. There is no reason to assume a higher ground position just because one studies a martial art.

Just sayin'

Monsoon
peace and harmony

monsoon
Monsoon
Forum Guru
 
Posts: 241
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:10 pm

Re: Morality, sorta...

Postby John the Monkey mind » Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:39 am

Monsoon wrote:I really wanted to post this on the other thread about morality but it got locked before I had the chance. Anyway, my point was this: why does anyone (I'm looking specifically at you Dvivid :D ) think that martial morality is any different from the normal kind of morality?

The 'rule' for wude that was put up in the first post of the ill-fated thread are pretty much the exact same morals that I was brought up with outside of any martial background.

Good morality is good morality. There is no reason to assume a higher ground position just because one studies a martial art.

Just sayin'

Monsoon


I don't think its different to regular morality but historically practitioners have been expectedness to more rigidly keep to the code and this was enforced by teachers. When Sun Lo Tang took up kung fu the locals feared he would end up a bandit. If a martial artist was not of high morality there was a high risk that he would abuse his art as a fast way out of poverty.
John the Monkey mind
Forum ÜberGuru
 
Posts: 482
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:15 am

Postby yat_chum » Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:04 am

"Morality comes before and after the fight."
Grandmaster Abner Pasa, Balitok Eskrima
yijing zhidong

use stillness to overcome movement
yat_chum
Forum God
 
Posts: 3176
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:18 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re:

Postby John the Monkey mind » Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:26 am

yat_chum wrote:"Morality comes before and after the fight."
Grandmaster Abner Pasa, Balitok Eskrima


Very true but teaching also comes before the fight. :)
John the Monkey mind
Forum ÜberGuru
 
Posts: 482
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:15 am

Re: Morality, sorta...

Postby brer_momonga » Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:29 am

I don't think martial morality, Wu De, or "kung fu code" is any different from the "normal kind of morality." its values are not that different from other systems of virtue if moved out of the martial arts context and placed into another one. Do you mean by "There is no reason to assume a higher ground position just because one studies a martial art" that one shouldn't consider someone who practices martial arts and follows Wu De to have a better morals than someone who, say, practices Islam, or has developed/learned a sense of morality from another values system or independent of an organized values system or are you saying that one shouldn't assume that just because someone practices martial arts that said person has good morality?

If you mean the former, you're preaching to the choir.If you mean the latter, that's a good question but I wish it would go without saying...

the problem of morality will always be an issue in our world. We talk about Wu De on this board because discussions (particularly on the Shaolin Gong Fu / Kung Fu topic thread) are in martial arts context. I'm sure you'll find that most folks here agree that these values can be found in a myriad of wisdom traditions so discussion around why Wu De is better than other systems of morality or if one's command of it is superior to any other person's will only result in petty argument.

As for Dvivid's original question - are we out of step with today's morality and ethics nowadays? things like manners seem to be largely out of practice in modern america - a good example of that is the behavior we always see in merging traffic.

It's a very good thing that Wu De is attached to martial arts practice -as JMM reminded us, a master needs to be certain that a student will not become a bandit.

a student must demonstrate that he embraces/adheres to some sort of moral code because Praying mantis kills.

I don't think it needs to be Wu De necessarily, but why not? In a perfect world, everyone who
practices martial arts practices politeness to the same degree.
brer_momonga
Forum Specialist
 
Posts: 131
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:36 pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Re: Morality, sorta...

Postby Josh Young » Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:45 am

Morality is socially informed in many ways and thus can differ from region to region and culture to culture, WuDe is more standardized.
That is a primary difference in my opinion.
Josh Young
Forum DemiGod
 
Posts: 720
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:03 pm

Re: Morality, sorta...

Postby Monsoon » Sun Sep 23, 2012 3:49 pm

Great post Brer!

I think there are certainly some people who believe that because they are martial artists that they must be of better moral character. A minority perhaps but it does happen. However, given the potential violence inherent in all martial practices it is perhaps more prudent to expect teachers to adhere to a strict moral code.

Morals today seem to be declining, although if you look back in history you will find plenty of examples of famous people saying the exact same things in their time too! What I see happening is a growing sense of (misplaced) entitlement that is driven into frenzy by marketeers. When someone feels entitled they tend to leave their morals at the door.

Morality is socially informed in many ways and thus can differ from region to region and culture to culture, WuDe is more standardized.


This is only true in part. Core morals, on this world at least, are largely the same across ALL societies. WuDe is certainly not more standardised than any other moral code. Although I am not a Christian perhaps I should point you in the direction of the 10 Commandments. Nothing more standardised than that! And incidentally, almost identical to what is derived from the Quran, and indeed the teachings of Gautama.

In my original post I did caution against this perception of the 'martial moral code' being somehow different, and by implication 'better'. Mind you, it is better to behave morally than to talk about it! Ah, trapped in my own snare. :) \

Monsoon
peace and harmony

monsoon
Monsoon
Forum Guru
 
Posts: 241
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:10 pm

Re: Morality, sorta...

Postby Josh Young » Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:00 pm

Core morals, on this world at least, are largely the same across ALL societies. WuDe is certainly not more standardised than any other moral code. Although I am not a Christian perhaps I should point you in the direction of the 10 Commandments. Nothing more standardised than that! And incidentally, almost identical to what is derived from the Quran, and indeed the teachings of Gautama.


I will contest this.
Look at these commandments:
I am the Lord, your God.
Thou shall bring no false idols before me.
Do not take the name of the Lord in vain.
Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.


Those are entirely culturally specific and not much at all like the teachings of Buddha.

Now in comparison WuDe is a code, as in it is codified.
codified
Verb:

Arrange (laws or rules) into a systematic code.
Arrange according to a plan or system.


I would say that WuDe is highly standardized, far more so than morality in general. It is a code of conduct, the 10 commandments are not, they are a list of things to do or not do. The code of conduct on the other hand is far more general and pertains to behavior and mentality on all levels. It is not a list of thou shall and thou shalt not...

It is composed of the following:

Morality of Deed

Humility, Respect, Righteousness, Trust and Loyalty

Morality of Mind

Will, Endurance, Perseverance, Patience and Courage


Like the commandments it has 10 essential parts. However most (if not all) those aspects are totally absent from the ten commandments and many (other) moral codes. for example the ten commandments have nothing about humility, respect, loyalty, will, endurance, perseverance, patience or courage. The 10 commandments say nothing of right mindedness, which is reflected both in Wu De and in the teachings of Buddha.

One could in fact totally follow the 10 commandments and not follow WuDe at all. One might follow WuDe likewise and not follow all of the 10 commandments.

Morality is often pertaining to custom, take the 10 commandments for example, lets use the example of the commandment about keeping the Sabbath holy, the sabbath is an entirely different day of the week for Christians than it is for Jews. Islam has no Sabbath. In this case customs informs the "rules"

While WuDe does have much in common with moral codes of many cultures, it has rather little in common with the 10 commandments. I would expect that a person who follows WuDe would be far better as a person in terms of character and conduct than someone who merely follows the 10 commandments. One can follow the 10 commandments and be cruel, intolerant, hateful, vengeful, have no respect for other beliefs, be impolite etc, however one cannot be those things and follow Wu De.

I personally think WuDe is vastly superior to the 10 commandments.

I do not think that practicing martial arts makes one follow WuDe or makes one morally superior to another. It does not make sense that one follows WUDe simply because one practices martial arts.

Good morality is good morality. There is no reason to assume a higher ground position just because one studies a martial art.

I agree 100% with this.

Some parts of moral codes across the world are in common, at the most basic level it can be described as "do no harm" but WuDe does go far beyond this.

This is my opinion and observation.
Josh Young
Forum DemiGod
 
Posts: 720
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:03 pm

Re: Morality, sorta...

Postby Monsoon » Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:36 am

Fair points all Josh, although I disagree in part on how you divide various 'subjects' into moral code or not.

The ethic of reciprocity is the only moral. If you followed this one rule you would need no others. Which is perhaps why it is known as the 'Golden Rule'. All other codes are nothing more that attempts to explain this one.

BTW you are incorrect on Sabbath. The word means 'day of rest' it most certainly does not imply any particular day. So it doesn't matter whether gentile or jew, you will both still have a sabbath day called 'the sabbath'. Actual day is irrelevant, but I digress.

Disagreement does not mean that we cannot be friends, does it? :D

Monsoon

Edit: found this... (hope the link works)

http://taijiyang.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/wu-de.jpg

Challenge: find one person who realistically embodies all these virtues.
peace and harmony

monsoon
Monsoon
Forum Guru
 
Posts: 241
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:10 pm

Re: Morality, sorta...

Postby John the Monkey mind » Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:55 am

The ten commandments are not the main source for moral guidance for Christians. The New Testament is more significant. The New Testament and the teachings of Jesus deal more with good action than prohibitions (do unto others as you would have them do unto you, who is my brother? Remove the plank in your own eye). It can be viewed as a reaction against immoral people claiming morality because they kept all the prohibitions and compulsions of religious law. Take the story of the good Samaritan for example, the priest is not shown to be moral despite his unwillingness to help being motivated by keeping religious purity. Interestingly Catholicism draws much of its ethical underpinning from Aristotelian ethics. Virtue Ethics. WuDe is a Virtue Ethics system.

As for Monsoon's criticism of the entitlement culture I couldn't agree more. This is why I am against Human RightsTM I view it as leading to an immoral culture where you can be a turd but play at being holy wile others abuse the system to get what they can from their entitlements.

The only true way to be moral is to try and be virtues as you can not have a rule for every situation. Neither can you brake every decision down into a grater good equation like Immanuel Kant method.
John the Monkey mind
Forum ÜberGuru
 
Posts: 482
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:15 am

Re: Morality, sorta...

Postby Josh Young » Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:54 am

The Sabbath is strictly Saturday for nearly all Judaism, and usually Sunday for Christianity. It was a day not only for rest, but for the observation of specific religious practices. It is a term linked to the Abrahamic religious view of creation, in which God rested on the 7th day. In the original account that would be Saturday, Sunday being day 1 of the week. It is rather specific and in terms of the commandments it was strictly interpreted to mean Saturday for the Jews.

One could not be seen as keeping the Sabbath holy by observing any other day of the week as the day of rest in the culture. In fact, if you look into it you will also find that the original punishment for not observing the Sabbath was death. Saying that you chose "to rest" on a day other than Saturday would not save your life from this punishment.


The ethic of reciprocity is the only moral. If you followed this one rule you would need no others. Which is perhaps why it is known as the 'Golden Rule'. All other codes are nothing more that attempts to explain this one.

It is a good basic level teaching, but I also disagree very strongly with this. Wu De for example goes far beyond it. The ten commandments, if you see them as a code, also have a lot that has nothing to do with it.

http://taijiyang.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/wu-de.jpg
as for the image above and what it contains, I've met a few people in life that seemed to embody that, but honestly very very few. I do find that list to be funny though, it becomes too specific and seems to miss the point of Wu De, at least for me.

Disagreement does not mean that we cannot be friends, does it? :D

No it does not.
I have never had issue with anyone for having a different opinion.
I have many friends, but not one of them do I fully agree with, and they me, about everything.
Josh Young
Forum DemiGod
 
Posts: 720
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:03 pm

Re: Morality, sorta...

Postby Dvivid » Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:22 am

Josh is pretty right on here.

Think about it, ancient China was like the wild west. Total chaos, roving bandits, and you could get killed any time. Martial Arts were a means of survival, not a hobby.

We reference Wu De now out of tradition, but also to maintain a certain standard and code of ethics for martial artists specifically.

Yes, martial morality is similar to general morality of course. But, its important these be discussed in a martial content, because we are teaching people to kill. And these are also helpful aspects of being that you may experience during your difficult training, patience, humility, endurance...
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing
Dvivid
Forum God
 
Posts: 1725
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:48 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Morality, sorta...

Postby Monsoon » Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:00 pm

Regarding the ethic of reciprocity and
It is a good basic level teaching, but I also disagree very strongly with this. Wu De for example goes far beyond it.


You have this the wrong way around in my opinion. This ethic represents the highest expression of morals, whereas your defintions are a deconstruction of this for the purposes of explanation and education. There is nothing wrong about doing that because ultimately we have to learn somehow, and deconstruction is very useful for this.

Please not that I am not arguing against WuDe at all. I think it is a grand ideal to be adhered to and promoted, not just among the MA community but in a broader sense. However, a little perspective is in order to prevent any of us preening ourselves over any perceived moralistic elevation above the rest of society.

And you certainly don't want to find yourselves walking the same nihilistic path as bushido. :D

Interesting discussion though, especially considering we are all seemingly arguing from the same side of the fence!

On the sabbath though (sorry), it is NOW held to be saturday for Judaism/Sunday for Christians, but the word pre-dates any mention of actual named days of the week (first noted in written work around AD170), especially considering it pertains to the old testament. Besides which, all the English derived weekday names are taken from roman/greek/norse/other mythology, and have absolutely nothing to do with Judaeo-Christianity, in the same way that the dates for Christmas have no basis in any actual historical J-C tradition. IIRC the bible simply mentions that God created the earth and everything in 6 days and rested on the seventh. It does not mention what days those are, or even the length of the days. The fact that since then the 'sabbath' has been socially/culturally agreed upon to fall on a particular day of the week is totally arbitrary - although such constructs do gather momentum of their own, even when they have no intrinsic merit.

Actually that makes me wonder now: before the advent of the modern calendar, how did pre-Christian religious groups determine what the days should be called - because it sure as hell wasn't monday, tuesday etc.

Back to WuDe and that link...
I've met a few people in life that seemed to embody that, but honestly very very few.
I would like to think that if you met someone who truly emodied those concepts then you would not use the word 'seemed', that you would be utterly confident. Note: this is not a criticsim or judgement of you or the people you have met, simply an opinion.

As a former armed forces member the concept of a martial moral code and its application is not wholly unfamiliar to me :)

Thank you for your patience and willingness to at least hear another opinion. Not so common these days, sadly.

Monsoon
peace and harmony

monsoon
Monsoon
Forum Guru
 
Posts: 241
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:10 pm

Re: Morality, sorta...

Postby Josh Young » Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:03 pm

I disagree about the Sabbath, I know the modern names distinct from it, but the (Judaic) calendar is something you can follow back.
On the sabbath though (sorry), it is NOW held to be saturday for Judaism/Sunday for Christians, but the word pre-dates any mention of actual named days of the week

Not really, the Jews were quite accurate in terms of calendar dates and mathematics in general:

Yom Rishon - יום ראשון (abbreviated יום א׳) = "first day" = Sunday (starting at preceding sunset)
Yom Sheni - יום שני (abbr. יום ב׳) = "second day" = Monday
Yom Shlishi - יום שלישי (abbr. יום ג׳) = "third day" = Tuesday
Yom Reviʻi - יום רביעי (abbr. יום ד׳) = "fourth day" = Wednesday
Yom Chamishi - יום חמישי (abbr. יום ה׳) = "fifth day" = Thursday
Yom Shishi - יום ששי (abbr. יום ו׳) = "sixth day" = Friday
Yom Shabbat - יום שבת (abbr. יום ש׳) or more usually שבת - Shabbat = "Sabbath day (Rest day)" = Saturday


Bushido in my study is not nihilistic at all but had moral codes. One can find treaties on such in works by Munenori, Musashi, Soho and many others. The influences of Taoism and Buddhism are particularly noteworthy in that regard.

I would like to think that if you met someone who truly emodied those concepts then you would not use the word 'seemed', that you would be utterly confident

Nay, in my own view certainty (utterly confident as it were) is a mark of a fool or a fraud. I met people who seemed to embody such, but I do not know their minds and as such I could never be certain. I distrust all those who present almost observation in certainty, I have yet to meet an wise human who does so, in my own experience.

I disagree that the ethic of reciprocity represents the highest expression of morals, rather I think it is the most basic and primitive form of moral realization. Fort example, WuDe deals with right-mindedness (to borrow the Buddhist term), but the ethic of reciprocity is only in terms of interactions and deed regarding others, it deals with doing, not thinking and thus is quite limited.

Thank you for your patience and willingness to at least hear another opinion. Not so common these days, sadly.

It is very much appreciated, please forgive my difference of opinion.
Josh Young
Forum DemiGod
 
Posts: 720
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:03 pm

Re: Morality, sorta...

Postby Monsoon » Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:54 pm

I think we are at cross purposes regarding calendars - even though it is only a minor point in this discussion. The Jewish calendar that predates the Gregorian calendar (for example) has no connection to it. Let me ask a question: what distinguishes between one day and any other day? If I woke you up after an unspecified amount of time asleep, would you be able to tell what day it was just by looking out of the window? Certainly if you knew star positions you could perhaps extrapolate how many days have passed, but the naming of the day is still arbitrary... unless you have a baseline day to start with.

Naming conventions are just that, conventions. They have no independent reality. Calendars have shifted around quite a bit throughout human history. Even the length of the years and months has changed several times.

Bushido does contain a strong nihilistic streak, or at least the potential for it. This is a quite common danger with all martial codes: that some adherents may assume a death or glory approach, or a gung ho attitude that leads to ill-considered action. I am not against bushido in concept though.

When I talk about confidence in meeting one of those special people who embody all the virtues we aspire to, I am referring to that unexplainable sense of rightness that you sometimes get. As an example, there are some tibetan buddhists in my town who teach at the local university and have their own temple. While I am sure they are decent people they often seem just like ordinary people wearing orange robes. Then one day I bumped into the Abbot on the beach (of all places!). I didn't know he was the Abbot until some time later, but I remember a feeling of real shock at the time, like something was transmitted (hard to pick the right word really), and I knew with certainty that he was a man of genuine depth. My choice of words 'utterly confident' was perhaps ill-conceived in the last post, even though I knew what I meant it wasn't clear to others.

I disagree that the ethic of reciprocity represents the highest expression of morals, rather I think it is the most basic and primitive form of moral realization.


Except... the simplest value IS the highest expression. Moving from simple to complex is moving away from the core. Same in tai ji quan. Which might be why some very high level people get obsessed with some tiny detail for a very long time.

It's interesting that quite a lot of people view simplicity as primitive and complexity as evolved. Don't worry, I've been there a few times! What I can tell you is that as the years roll by your view of this will wash like a tide on the shores of both opinions. :D

Monsoon
peace and harmony

monsoon
Monsoon
Forum Guru
 
Posts: 241
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:10 pm

Re: Morality, sorta...

Postby Josh Young » Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:42 pm

I think you can find that the calender chronology is easy to trace back, it is not arbitrary in sequence, only in the names. It is not like there is a day the forgot to count and so lost track of the sequence, but I agree that is a side issue. I would add however that calendar chronologies are often celestially based and we can actually calculate back, based on astronomy, what day of the week was what (according to modern name), far far beyond the origin of recorded history. You could pick a random day 20,000 years ago and calculate what day of the week it would have been in the modern calender system. The names are arbitrary, but the days are always sequential.

Bushido for me is not at all nihilistic, far from it. I did study it's history, literature and figures for over a decade. I find it impossible, having this familiarity with it, to consider it other than morally obsessed.

I would enjoy a discussion on that topic in another thread, perhaps you have some literary Bushido works in mind that are nihilistic in nature? I would enjoy being exposed to them.

When I talk about confidence in meeting one of those special people who embody all the virtues we aspire to, I am referring to that unexplainable sense of rightness that you sometimes get

I have never had a "unexplainable sense of rightness" from anyone, not even newborn children. You may experience such, but I have yet to. I have had impressions of people, however to me this is how they seem and nothing else. As a human being I am far too limited in mental faculty to be a fit judge of character, I tend to let peoples characters judge themselves through their own actions and words.

I disagree that the simplest value is the highest expression. I view it as rather low. I used to think it was the highest ideal, like you, many years ago, but I learned a great deal more about it from personal experience and gained an appreciation beyond it, in my opinion.

It's interesting that quite a lot of people view simplicity as primitive and complexity as evolved.

I totally agree, what I wrote has nothing to do with that. More to the point, if you think that the golden rule is "core", then I also disagree, I believe that the mind is more the core than the outer actions, but the golden rule has nothing to do with right mind, it is about action, how one treats others, and as such is quite external.

Thus for me the primitiveness of the ethic of reciprocity is not about it's simplicity, nor about the complexity of alternate ethics. As I wrote it has to to with it being incomplete and having nothing to do with right mindedness. It entirely ignores individual morality in terms of thought and emotion. As such it is quite primitive and basic. I view a moral code that pertains to thought, as well as action, to be vastly superior to the golden rule, which has nothing to do with mindset. Someone can follow the golden rule perfectly but lack virtues of WuDe, such as endurance, patience etc.
Josh Young
Forum DemiGod
 
Posts: 720
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:03 pm

Re: Morality, sorta...

Postby Monsoon » Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:42 pm

Perhaps you are right. As I said though, I have been where you are now, twice, it's kind of a cycle for me. I assumed, maybe incorrectly, that others experienced the same oscillation.

Mind you, I am allowing myself to be exceptionally broad in my interpretation. The 'golden rule', to me, encompasses all the virtues that you named, yet doesn't actually name them. At its simplest, to treat another person as you would like to be treated is most definitely an expression of right mindedness. When you strip away all interpretations, all shades of meaning, you are ultimately left with the golden rule. Either way, we may simply end up trading defintions, which wouldn't really help us.

To me the ethic of reciprocity is complete. It requires neither thought nor emotion, as these move away from the centre much as yin and yang move away from wuji. It's not wrong to think that way, just different, which is why I suggested we are arguing (in a sense) from the same side of the fence. On the other hand 'right mindedness' is also just a human construct and has no independent validity. We impose it on ourselves.

If find morals and ethics are hugely interesting because they are simultaneously simple and complex. Unfortunately they can also be terribly polarising too.

I am happy to be proved wrong time and time again. Why? Because it reminds me of how little I really know, and of how much richness there is still to taste!

And maybe I am misreading bushido too. Perhaps the nihilism I see within it is what is portrayed through the popular media. I have certainly not studied it in any great depth, and accept that my comment might be disposable. 'Morally obsessed' sounds more accurate than nihilistic I guess.

One thing concerning Wu De though, it always seems to me to be a passive code and a reactionary one. I would prefer to see it promoted as proactive moral code. It is far too easy to act morally when it is demanded of one, far more difficult to take one's sense of right-mindedness out into the world for betterment of others. Hopefully that makes some kind of sense.

Something also to consider is the list of virtues. They cannot exist in isolation. They must each have at least one regulating agent. Otherwise they devolve into only what they are and become lacking in any true virtue at all.

On my 'unexplainable sense of rightness', once again I assumed that other people got this from time to time. It can't just be me, can it? :roll:

And lastly, on the calendar :D , as I am not a scholar of the Bible - or indeed anything else actually - does it really state that God started work (creation) on a specific day? Or is it more a case of 'God started work, we'll call that a monday shall we?"

I feel totally outclassed. I am one of those people that so frequently gets lost in thought, mainly because it is such unfamiliar territory!

Monsoon
peace and harmony

monsoon
Monsoon
Forum Guru
 
Posts: 241
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:10 pm

Re: Morality, sorta...

Postby Brian » Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:09 am

I just want to say that this is a great display of positive argument between Josh and Monsoon...it's almost like pushing hands except with words...great stuff!!...if only more debates on this forum were as well conducted!!

:D
Taiji, QiGong and Meditation
Brian
Forum Specialist
 
Posts: 119
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:54 am
Location: Ireland

Re: Morality, sorta...

Postby Monsoon » Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:51 am

Aw shucks!

Actually I am a little embarrassed. Josh is far more knowledgeable than I am on all this stuff, and he has shown a great deal of patience and tolerance as I ramble my way through some quite disjointed thinking.

One lesson I have learned from internet debates is that it rarely pays to stick too rigidly to one's ideas, particularly in a field were much may be subjective. Although this is going to sound like a racist comment (but it's really not) it saddens me that in some cultures it is considered shameful to admit a lack of understanding on anything. I wouldn't judge someone on what they do or do not know, but I would encourage them to at least take part in the discussions. That's what I try to do, and heaven knows that I probably take more value from them than what I personally bring to them.

I am also a little disappointed by the lack of traffic on these boards. I am new here, but even so I expected a livelier engagement from a wider membership.

And thanks for you kind words too, but really they should be directed at Josh.

Monsoon

edited one time by Monsoon for some truly atrocious spelling and grammar!
peace and harmony

monsoon
Monsoon
Forum Guru
 
Posts: 241
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:10 pm

Re: Morality, sorta...

Postby Dvivid » Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:55 am

I agree. Thank you for keeping it respectful. The other (now locked) thread devolved into bickering and insults, wi=hich is a sad irony based on my initial intention of posting it in the first place because of identical behavior on all other martial arts forums!

We want YMAA to be a place for intelligent, humble, and informed martial arts discussion, in-depth, without ego.
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing
Dvivid
Forum God
 
Posts: 1725
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:48 am
Location: Boston, MA

Next

Return to Shaolin Gong Fu / Kung Fu

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron
©2013 YMAA | About YMAA | Privacy Policy |Terms of Use | Permissions | Contact Us