Sam Chien (three wars)

Discuss shaolin longfist, white crane or other styles. Theory, practice and applications. Please stay on topic.

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Re: Sam Chien (three wars)

Postby taiwancrane » Sat Sep 01, 2012 7:35 pm

Hi Everyone,

In reply to the tiger and crane used in Fujian White Crane (FWC). Their are actually five animals used: Tiger, Panther, Snake, Crane and Dragon this is basic to all Southern Fist styles. By looking at a particular lineage of FWC you can see what they emphasize and most Southern Fist styles have the three battles, for example all Fujian White Crane, Wing Chun, Southern Mantis, Dragon and Tiger fist. Hung gar, Snake fist, Dragon fist, Tiger fist, Leopard fist I don't know, but I imagine as they are all part of Southern Fist will have their version of the three battles (San Chien).

Wing Chun focuses on the snake. Southern Mantis focuses on the panther, tiger, dragon and snake. Wing Chun comes from FWC in particular Ming He (Calling Crane), but wing chun has removed the breathing that white crane has. Most Fujian White Crane masters believe wing chun is a lineage of white crane. Anyway in Taiwan they do.

The five animals represent certain qualities: Dragon Fist trains spirit. Tiger Fist trains the bones. Leopard Fist trains the muscular power. Snake Fist trains the chi. The Crane Fist trains the Ching (Spirit).

Myself being a student of Fujian White Crane train the crane way. There are four types of cranes: 1. Fei He (Flying Crane) the chi expands and contracts. 2. Ming He (Calling Crane) breathing. 3. Zhong He (Shaking Crane) like a dog shaking water off its body. 4. Shi He (Eating Crane) the fighting side.

Karate also has its roots in Fujian White Crane specifically Ming He. However, but it is extremely hard a characteristic not shared by White Crane.

It started about 527-536 A.D. However I believe it is a lot older than this. I don't believe Da Mo could have taught the five fists as there is nothing in the Indian culture that teaches these five animal fists. It probably came from Taoism. Anyway it is Chinese in origin and not from Shaolin originally. I can't imagine these Buddhist Monks as being superlative fighters as they were more interested in enlightenment. Most of the generals from the defeated dynasties brought their arts to Shaolin.
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Postby yat_chum » Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:47 pm

Southern Shaolin Ngo Cho Kun Sam Chien form
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYAJ4qOJGkU
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Re: Sam Chien (three wars)

Postby baihe shifu » Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:14 pm

Karate also has its roots in Fujian White Crane specifically Ming He. However, but it is extremely hard a characteristic not shared by White Crane.


Often times, I’ve been asked about my position on the origin of Karate. I firmly do not believe that Karate can be traced back to Fuzhou cranes because most Karate folks have little inkling or none at all about this elemental He Quan Quan Jue.

It is clearly reflected in how they move.

Fuzhou White Crane is not "Karate" nor is it related to "Hakutsuru."

Many within the martial arts world state that there exists a link from Okinawan Karate to that of Fuzhou White Crane but nothing could be further from the truth.

Fuzhou White Crane as a unique art form and tradition has no verifiable link to Okinawan Karate and even less to that which is commonly termed "Hakutsuru."

Okinawans did not get their materials from Fuzhou. They may have acquired it from Fujian / Taiwan or any other part of China but not Fuzhou.

Karate researchers are better off looking at Ngo Chor (5 Elders) and Tai Chor (Grand Ancestor) rather that White Crane per se. These 2 styles are greatly influenced by Fukien White Crane and these could be their original source. The Tiger Kung Fu is the very one that the Uechi Ryu people align themselves with.

Karate contains very little White Crane. There is some Chinese connection but definitely not White Crane. Most Karate folks talk about Fuzhou White Crane but nothing they do comes close. Goju-Ryu seems more aligned to Ngo Chor. Uechi-Ryu would seem to reflect the essence of Tiger Kung Fu within its technical make-up.

Fuzhou White Crane is a totally unique art and is in no way related to modern "Crane Karate" and "Hakutsuru" as taught by other groups.

Their purported Crane kata are nothing like what we do in Fuzhou White Crane – especially in relation to fundamental root dissimilarities and not stylistics. It would seem that the only thing they obtained out of Fuzhou is the names of their katas.

As for "Hakutsuru", a few think that White Crane is just a couple of crane styles blocks and crane beak hand strikes! Much (if not all) of that passed off as "Hakutsuru" has no relation to real Fuzhou White Crane.

The approach of the White Crane Research Institute creates powerful questions within people, questions that change minds, that open them and compel them to grow.

The White Crane Research Institute presents a challenge of the deepest kind, probably viewed by the inner self as momentous.

Our motivation is revelation - To open up the real art of Fuzhou White Crane to the world.
This is not some sort of "Crane Karate". Nor is it "Hakutsuru". This is the real art as taught by the Fuzhou descendents of Fuzhou White Crane.
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Re: Sam Chien (three wars)

Postby John the Monkey mind » Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:47 pm

Look at the guy from 2:32 on this Varma Adi video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... -nY#t=152s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmO2cEHf9jA

Despite the differences there has got to common ancestor for the South Indian Martial arts of Varma Adi and the form Sam Chien.
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Postby yat_chum » Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:10 am

Sanchin, from a Western medicine perspective
http://www.olemiss.edu/orgs/karate/sanchin.html
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Postby yat_chum » Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:50 am

The SanZhan Way by Ron Goninan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QcSD0gqKtg

A pdf talking about this version of SanZhan http://www.whitecranegongfu.com/The%20S ... dition.pdf
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Re: Sam Chien (three wars)

Postby baihe shifu » Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:23 am

Hi Yat Chum,

Interesting! The article (PDF) is actually incomplete and has since been markedly updated and will be released on our new site. I will let all know when this occurs.

The footage is indeed the first few steps of our SanZhan done at a walk through pace and is certainly nothing special. I am pretty damn average, of little skill and even less understanding and knowledge so I have a long ways to go!!! :oops:

I'd welcome your honest comments on both the PDF and Vid (keeping in mind both are incomplete) warts and all. This is how one learns and grows ... at least that's the way I approach things. :D
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Re: Sam Chien (three wars)

Postby Dvivid » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:30 am

Baihe Shifu - Excellent! This is a really amazing effort. I look forward to further revision. Teaching is learning, as they say.

I feel that this is important research as San Chin may well be considered the missing link between many Eastern arts, and part of the transmission of the theory of internal arts from China to Japan and Okinawa.

One thing. The Shen (spirit) is a crucial element to qigong study and practice. if the original document you translated referenced mind, body, spirit (shen), then I would disagree with your changes to this concept in the first paragraph. Spirit (shen) and mind do NOT mean the same thing.

You probably know the Shen is NOT the Qi, though they are related. And that ancient Chinese viewed the mind as having two aspects, the emotional mind (conscious) and the wisdom mind (unconscious). Im happy to discuss this further if you like.
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Re: Sam Chien (three wars)

Postby baihe shifu » Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:50 pm

Dvivid,

Thanks for your comments. Please feel free to discus this further.

Interested in your views re: the footage.
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Postby yat_chum » Sat Apr 20, 2013 5:19 pm

Hi BaiHe Shifu I have watched the vid a few times now and I would like to see the full form. Please forgive me if I speak out of turn but to me it looks like the version you perform is an amalgamation of at least three White Crane systems.
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Re: Sam Chien (three wars)

Postby baihe shifu » Sun Apr 21, 2013 2:09 am

Hi,

Thank you for your comments and your not speaking out of turn! Yes I guess it could be viewed as an amalgamation as I have been exposed to three differing versions of Minghe. I unlike many others "out there" do not lay claim to be doing the "Exact Original (Whatever that may be!).

I will post the full form in a week or two dependent on when I can get it filmed.

I'd like to hear your comments on that seen thus far?
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Re: Sam Chien (three wars)

Postby Dvivid » Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:32 am

I am not an expert on the form, so I decline commenting. But I do feel that the existence of multiple variations of a form this old is inevitable, and each is equally valid.

My concern is with the correct translation and transmission of the theory. I suggest you read further about the Shen (spirit) and consider revisiting that first paragraph. Read about the Five Regulatings , body, breath, mind, Qi, and Spirit (shen). If the original Chinese text refers to mind/body/spirit, it is just incorrect to make the change to mind/body/breath.
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Re: Sam Chien (three wars)

Postby chh » Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:35 pm

The English wikipedia article on Shen/神 also gives a really nice overview of Shen in Chinese religion and philosophy over time. It gives some citations that could be useful for looking at meanings of Shen.

Incidentally, Victor Mair's translation of Tao Te Ching is one of the citations, and I didn't know he had done a translation. He is a fantastic linguist and a very well regarded Sinologist, and it's probably a good read for people interested in the lexical semantics and the poetry! Has anyone here read this?
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Re: Sam Chien (three wars)

Postby Monsoon » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:31 pm

While I understand that Mair is a first rate scholar, this translation falls between being literal and being a good interpretation of the intent of the original text. It ends up being neither and thus I rate it quite poorly.

For those interested in various translations I offer this link.

I would further urge interested readers to rummage around among the various translations presented until they find one that resonates with them in some way. The reason I suggest this is twofold:

1. In the original text the language is malleable - that is, it permits many similar seeming interpretations that can subtly alter the meaning of whole phrases and paragraphs. I believe that this is intentional on the part of the original author(s).

2. Aside from personal taste, each of the different translations can have greater import to the reader at different times and stages in his/her life and experience.

Ultimately, there is no absolute best translation... just as there is no objectively best style of taijiquan!

Have fun :D
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Postby yat_chum » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:31 am

San Chien from the Chee Kim Thong lineage of Wuzuquan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we5G5xd96fs
Last edited by yat_chum on Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby yat_chum » Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:08 am

baihe shifu, it is difficult for me to comment on the form as the Minghequan version I have any actual experience of does not have a Sanzhan form, instead the first form is Ba Bu Lian which you will know contains elements of sanzhan.
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Postby yat_chum » Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:10 am

Mind you after watching several clips on youtube of Minghequan I am amazed at the amount of variation of the sanzhan form within one system of white crane.
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Re: Sam Chien (three wars)

Postby baihe shifu » Wed May 08, 2013 6:08 pm

Here is some very recently updated links to some footage that I'd really appreciate you comments on both negative and positive:

SanZhan Instructional:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIGQ_OjF ... e=youtu.be

Please watch through to the end as their is a listing of the moves within the form.

The demonstration shown here is from a Martial not "technical" perspective. In our school of White Crane Gongfu, it is felt that Yi or "Intention" and Shen fa or "Body-Feel" are far more important and or greater value than if your elbow is in or out slightly, whether you foot faces too much this way or that. We believe that in the heat of combative or life-protection situations these things matter the least. Body-Feel is to our way, the most important aspect one can develop!

White Crane Broadsword:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkmGHgw-R7w

White Crane Straight Sword:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xUcScMW8CM

White Crane Pole:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULtmCQ7aL0M

Tai Chi 8 Form:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_ynLIBCLic

I hope you will take the time to write your honest views as this is one way in which I can learn and improve myself!
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Postby yat_chum » Fri May 10, 2013 6:02 am

Thanks for posting baihe shifu, I suddenly remembered that I have seen a San Zhan form similar to yours http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqhsZDL4Q7o how are they related?

Please could you also explain the water hands, god shakes sleeves, white crane leaves nest section of the form?
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Re: Sam Chien (three wars)

Postby baihe shifu » Fri May 10, 2013 8:04 pm

They are not at all related. The form you linked is from a curious guy called Jamie Scuffell who first claimed to teach Eating Crane then changed that to Shaking Crane within a month of making his proclamation. One minute he was mimicking the White Crane of Master Dong Mu Yao (which I believe he learned from the Helen Shen Vids) then it was whatever he is doing now?I have met and seen this individual in action and his "White Crane" is nothing more than trumped up Wing Chun.

My White Crane is an interalization of three streams of Minghe: Ruan Dong, Lucas Law (Huang Xing Xian) and Yu Dan Qui's wonderful rendition.

The names of the movements was passed on to me by my Shifu, Lucas Law.

What do you want to know of these movement descriptions?
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