18 Daoist Palms, and other shaolin-daoist styles

[Jashu65]

IMHO, there is no reason at this time to believe that Mr. Lacy is a fraud. Not that I am a student mind you, but I have heard a few things about him in the past. According to my information source, Lacy was a student of Doo Wai, and it is true that Doo Wai disassociated himself from Mr. Lacy. Apparently, Mr. Lacy had broken the covenant between himself and Doo Wai by making the 18 Daoist Palms system available on video. When he began his smear campaign, Doo Wai acknowledged that Lacy inherited the 18 Daoist Palm system, but didn't want anything to do with Lacy anymore.

According to my source, Doo Wai is a descendent of the founder of the 18 Daoist Palm system. Doo Wai is also a master of other systems as well. So it doesn't take a tremendous leap of faith to think that Mr. Lacy is a bonafide instructor in the art. The only thing that I cannot confirm is how well Mr. Lacy learned his material from Doo Wai.

The other reason I do not believe that Mr. Lacy is a fraud is because at the time he was Doo Wai's student, my instructor, Sifu/Sensei Parker Linekin was also learning White Tiger Kung Fu from Doo Wai at the same time. At that time, Lacy was also a black belt in American Kenpo. I will point out that when I was under Sifu Linekins tutelage, he never associated with either Doo Wai or Mr. Lacy. I don't know if there was a falling out or what, but I remember a student of Doo Wai's coming to the dojo to pass out flyers for a tournament - Sifu Linekin dissmised the event when I had mentioned it to him.

[zipwolf]

how did he inherit that system when doo wai was not the grandmaster of it.

Even if he knew it, he wasnt the head of it.

Lacy is IMMENSELY dubious. There are so many discrepancies and problems with what he has said, including his own STUDENTS (one who is now an MMA fighter) discrediting him over and over.

He also happens to be one of those people who does a "video correspondance" system. So he grades people without ever PERSONALLY SEEING their technique.

[mookie]

I don't know about who can claim this or that about xyz system, but I can tell you he doesn't look very good. I'm no Tai Chi sword expert but I know it and I know what its supposed to look like. I know what it looks like when you've spent alot of time on it and he hasn't. Do people just meet some asian guy and make dren up? Some of us bust our bottom to take this esoteric Tai Chi stuff to a real life level and then kooks like this are the topic of conversation. I respect the next guys right to try to make a buck even if it isn't totally legit. But these so called "system" guys really P@$$ me off. Sorry for the rant but you all have been talking about this guy for 2 pages and he SUCKS!! Smashing coconuts, he could have learned that drinking Mai Tai's at Frat parties. As for crushing apples, I think my wife could do it.

[DOM]

I do not know much about him by I seen a clip were he brakes a cocunut.it took him five or more trys rotating it and hiting it in differant lacations.Not impessive to me.He could have bought the ones at the supper market were they put a groove in the shell to make it easier to open.

[mookie]

Coconuts are hard as hell, I've contemplated buying one to try the trick every time I pass them in the supermarket. That was before I saw all of this. Its a parlor trick. A good parlor trick, but a parlor trick nevertheless. Even if it takes him a few tries its still a good trick. His Tai Chi is crappy from what I see on his videos. That sword thing is really bad and the two person thing is funny. They don't seem to know how to use the kicks, armbars, ect. Like I said I'm seldom a hater. If someone wants to make a buck with videos more power to them. Coorespondance is cool too, I've learned alot from videos, but this guy wants 1100 bucks for his tape set! That's quite a chunk of change for some crappy Tai Chi.
Everyone on this thread should go out and pick up a coconut tonight or tomorrow and give it a try. Its not a bad trick.

[Lohan]

Hah! Yea a good trick I think too. As to his phoneyness.. I know nothing of the man i cannot say. The videos i saw he did show the coconut up close and there were no grooves.

Don't break your hand if you try it you guys! A former collegue of mine broke one with his backfist while holding it in his other hand, a feat i have yet to see repeated. He was a pretty crazy guy in alot of ways....

[Pooh_Tao]

The first thing my mum said after seeing one of his coconut breaks was: "Is this a joke?"

She still contests that he's joking.

[zipwolf]

lol, he is hillarious! Funniest idiot in martial arts.

[Jashu65]

I just want to point out that a lot of the free video that Lacy puts out on his site is from his Kenpo days. I have no idea if he has improved since I have never seen any of his products.

[zipwolf]

Dude, a lot of them arent from his older days. In them he claims them to be "18 daoist palms"

He is great to ask things though, i'm going to try and get his phone number and ask him about the kamehameha wave.

[Jashu65]

Zip,

HA, HA, HA, HA! Zip, I would like to know how old you are if 24 years isn't considered to be a lengthy amount of time. In all seriousness Zip, the point I was trying to make is that virtually all the Archived 1981 footage that you see on the front page of his website is Kenpo techniques (minus the Tai Chi 2-man set). This can't be his 18-Daoist Palms, or otherwise he is a very bad liar. Again I don't think he is a fraud just because of that. Anyway, I guess the only way to see if he legit is to buy one of his tapes and judge by yourself. I mean, if you think about it - Ed Parker was called a fraud by a large number of his former students, yet just about every American Kenpo School traces their roots to Mr. Parker. I guess if you are successful, you are going to have your fair share of critics.

I saw a thread here about some criticizing Lacy's distance learning process. You know, the Karate Connection does the same thing - they have the student turn in "test tapes" for the instructors to review. According to the founders of the system, the distance learning students are better at the basics of the system then the ones who train with instructors - since a tape can be replayed a number of times. But I would like to point out that this only works for the physical techniques - you need to find a competant instructor to progress with the qigong techniques.

[BaguaMonk]

When I made this topic I was curious because I had just stumbled upon it. But through all the arguments and what not (including Lacy's comments himself) it seems that both Lacy and Doo Wai have lost it (have you seen Doo Wai's parlor tricks?) I mean phosphoric chi (chi materlization)..come on.

[Jashu65]

I understand what you are getting at Bagua Monk and that is cool. To me, it seems unkind to judge Mr. Lacy's credibility simply based off of what you see and hear off of his website. I just feel that if you had a burning desire to find out if Lacy is the real McCoy, you gotta plunk down some money for a video, review it and then share it with someone as or more knowledgable then yourself. If you both come to the conclusion that Lacy is a monkey's uncle, then fine, pass the word along with your research. However, I want to point out that successful people often receive a lot bad press from their critiques, competitors, and former associates. These people for what ever reason feel they have to bring successful counterparts down to make themselves feel good. Granted Mr. Lacy isn't rolling in cash, but he must be doing something right or else he would have stopped selling these videos several years ago after leaving his Panther Productions venture. Anyway BM, I get feeling that you are tired of this particular thread so I will shut my pie hole.

[BaguaMonk]

Well I have read alot of Lacy's comments, Doo Wai's comments etc. and it seems like a circus show. It seems that Lacy stole many of Doo wai's tapes and training regimens a while back, and is even selling them. Coconut breaking is of no interest to me. Granted he could be a good man, but hearing them bicker back and forth, especially about lacy's wife is quite annoying

Other than that its all Gravy.

Im heavily intersted in Bak Mei though, whish there was a school near me.

[kung fu fighter]

Hi,

I recently bought Kwong Wing Lam's southern hung gar book, and in it he mentions the following:

"Grandmaster Fong Do-Duk, also known as the white eyebrow priest (Bak-Mei Do Yen), trained hard in the northern temple when he was young and reached the skill level of the other four elders when he was only thirty years old. Unsatisfied with his skills, he settled on wudang Mountain to further explore the arts and later created his own style. He became less involved with secular affairs as he got older. After the southern temple was burned down, he remained on Wudang Mountain for the rest of his life."

From the above, it seems that the Bak mei style was evolved from bak fu pai (white tiger style) which would logically make it a more advance system in theory and training methods.

I was wondering if the bak fu pai (white tiger style) and bak mei pai (white tiger style are similar, and what the similarities and differences are?

Any info about a comparission between these two great systems would be great.

Is the Bak fu pai system similar to Hakka/ san chin arts arts such as white crane southern praying mantis, pak mei, lung ying, wing chun? if so what are the similarities and differences?

[Blue Sky]

BaGuaMonk -
How do you gain knowledge and experience? Do you find the videos and books enough to gain enough understanding of Ba Gua?

[BaguaMonk]

I practice with my teacher and his students, and supplement with other people's experiences/thoughts/opinions, books, and some vids that I might find here and there (on internet). My mind is like a sponge when it comes to martial arts, it absorbs everything, and then I attempt to apply. The hardest thing to apply though, is the internal knowledge, that takes time, effort, and experience to accumulate.