Changing style...

[Dissident]

Psycrow,

How I understand you...

I have been through a situation witch I won't describe here cause it would take almost days to explain. But basically I think YMAA has such an incredible program and Master Yang is such a great person, I feel lucky just to had the possibility to train and learn somethings from him as well as with other YMAA members.

The place where I used to train was a completely different situation.

I started practicing and I enjoyed it very much, I didn't miss almost any classes and trained really hard I gave my best every single train, however I noticed there were some "battles" between the teacher and few students...at the begnining I didn't understand quite well what was the reason and I wasn't there to discuss policies but to practice a martial art that I really loved.

Also I noticed that my teacher had some students who were "elected" to be teached others where simply ignored.

Guess what...I turned out to be one of the "rejecteds"...I continued to train..very hard and learn everything by myself or with the help of other "ignoreds".

I was always anxious for Master Yangs seminars so I could learn some more things without interferences.

This situation started to grow...as older students left the school, and I was one of the few "resistants". My teacher was always very disrespectful to me during the classes, but in big events like seminars, tournaments and so he was the most wonderful person....outside everything looked like "perfect".

Eventually occured some major fights between me and my teacher, as well as false and onfensive accusations were made to me. So I decided to leave my school.

I didn't tell Master Yang this situation because:
-everyone who had been there like me, left the school, so I was alone in my "quest"
- my teacher looked and still looks the most amazing, unselfish, wonderful etc..person
- he had some "allies" who would support him

So you can imagine why I didn't fight to see this extremely unfair situation resolved.

I left YMAA, and all my love for long fist, white crane but specially for taiji.

In conclusion, what started as a passion with dedication ended in battles and struggles...

Today I keep myself informed about what happens in my ex-school and I just feel happy that my ex-teacher is losing lots of "allies" and perhaps later Master Yang and lots and lots of peopple will get really disappointed with him...It's just sad that someone who I respected treated me like that with no reason.

And now I just get happier and happier everytime things get harder for him. Revenge is being served really cold and slowly.

Sorry about my english I didn't have enough time to right in most correct way.

Cheers,

Hugs for everyone, Kepp practicing hard

[scramasax57]

...you started off saying you weren't going to explain the situation, and then did it anyways.

using words like "allies" and "enemies" is misleading and unconstructive. this is not a war where we try to force as much teaching out of the instructors as possible and they try to withhold it; everyone should have the same goal, which is passing on as much information as possible to the students while respecting the teacher and traditions of the school/style. personal resentments and accusations of "unfairness" get in the way of this goal. this is something i start teacher students at andover early on: life isn't fair. that doesn't excuse real cruelty or abuse, but it does mean that you should accept your teacher's decisions always. if you don't like the decisions, leave the school and do so quietly. realize that it was your own inability to deal with the decisions, not the alleged unfairness of the decisions themselves, that forced an ending to your training. master yang has said: fair or unfair doesn't matter. only obeying matters. if you cannot accept your teacher as absolute master of your training, you do not have the right mindset to learn martial arts.

[Dissident]

No. I didn't tell almost anything this was really quick explanation, very shallow.

However I understand you situation it reveals you didn't have to pass it trough. that's good

I heard Master Yang saying that...and I agree. But in this case that results in:

1) the Master Yang was my master not him...and to Master Yang I've never questioned his methods.

2) destroying all the martial arts spirit that YMAA tries to constrcut worldwide.

3) losing almost every possible candidate to pass down the knowledge, not his cause it's none, but the YMAA's and Master Yangs.

I used to be a "knight" like you always ready to defend the ideology, the ethics, the methods and so on...but how can you when feel trapped and choked everytime you try to bring light into the darkness?

Regards,

[Inga]

I did not find the explanation of your situation as “very shallow “at all. It is pretty plain that you are upset and bitter about your experience. If you choose to not fight for your principles, and speak up when you feel there is a problem then you must live with those consequences. If you felt that Master Yang was your sole master than you should have spoken to him directly. I personally would urge you to speak to him now and start to heal. I do not know what happened in your old school, but in general, we are flawed and you will meet people who behave unscrupulously, those are choices THEY make. YOU have to make your own strength to draw on when you face these individuals or you will sink. Here I refer you to Master Yang’s most recent newsletter where he talks about making our own fire. To gain pleasure from what you perceive as your former instructor’s ‘comeuppance’ is quite sad…we should never fall trap to taking strength from a negative source. I am sorry for your pain and that you feel so in the darkness. I can tell you that railing at this forum will only give you short term relief. I wish you well on your path to coming to peace with this.

[Dissident]

Inga wise words you say.

However, believe me the explanation was indeed very shallow. 5/6 years in that situation can't be described deeply in this forum.

I choosed not to speak, because as I said, he has a status of "excelent person" in YMAA, although some people know how he is others are starting to realise how he really is...and I think that if Master Yang hasn't already figured it out he will do it in short time I believe...

I'm not seeking relief in this forum at all. I got over it long time ago:)I was just addingd a comment on Psicrow post, saying that I understood in a way his situation, I was showing my support.

Also, YMAA and Master Yang have a mission and while spreading his message worldwide it is natural that some incidents like mine and that of psicrow and many others will certainly go on.

I truly wish the best for YMAA and its members!

Regards,

[Inga]

Ah, with respect dissident I would not say you were “over it a long time ago”. Given the handle you’ve chosen, using phrases like “trapped and choked” and gloating over your former instructor’s ‘trouble’ are proof of this. Posting this issue on the forum is another indication you are not over it. You are attempting to spread gossip about a conviction that you have been victimised. If you are talking about bullying at our school than your peers are not the ones who can look into this for you. Please stop complaining here and I urge you again to speak to Master Yang about your anger and bitterness.

[Dissident]

As I said previously...I'm glad that you talk that way it shows you didn't pass trough it, perhaps you have good teachers

Anyway I have already gave my 2 cents.

I was showing my support to Psycrow demonstrating that his school ain't the only one with "plots" like this...I'm not spreading gossip due to the fact that simply noone knows who I am and about who am I talking about...maybe someday

I'm just waiting for the truth to be revealed...cause I got over it but nevertheless I really like YMAA and its teachings.

Regards,

[DOM]

If you realy feel that this instuctors teaching methods and additude are realy harming the spirit of training and Ymaa and that his martial morality is is bad.Then you owe it if not to your self then to all the others that are training now and in the future,to make Master Yang aware of this situation.

[Dissident]

I was adviced by higher-ranked members (above my instructor, and other school instructors) not to tell anything to Master Yang. This way there would be no "beef" to anyone...although they agreed with me.

Regards,

[Walter Wong]

I'm curious who this YMAA instructor is. I hope it's not me. I thought I treat everyone equally and fairly. But anyone has a problem with me, I rather they come to me in person and talk privately with me and hope I can fix myself if I myself am the problem.

But other than that, if it's not me, then I wonder who this YMAA instructor is as if this is the way he is handling his students, then he must be dealt with properly. This is not good for YMAA to have such an instructor regardless of how many people like him or how highly skilled he is. Please private messege me of this person's name and I personally will talk to Master Yang bout this person. What you tell me in private messege will be strictly confidential. Several people on this forum know me personally and can confirm you can trust me as I have been loyal to Master Yang for almost 10 years here in Boston at YMAA Headquarters.

[OnlyMe]

One word of advice. Always take it to the top. From the top of the mountain the rivers flow purely, but as it travels lower and lower from the top, muddy and unclean the waters will become. If you can understand this, then you know what you need to do. Master Yang is a very busy person. He might not know one of his streams is muddy. Please talk to him, he will gladly listen I am sure.

[N0M4D]

DISCLAIMER: I speak from my experience only!

Ah, the politics training!... I *hate* the politics of training. Well, when I think about it, I hate politics, period. But alas, I too have been witness to this kind of thing, not only at my school but at other places as well.

However, I think I’d divide the situations reported in this particular post into two sections: the true politics, in the stricter sense of the word, which would relate more to Psycrow’s post (please correct me if I’m wrong); and the student/instructor “friction” type of thing, as described by Dissident. (Note that both can sometimes coexist/be related.)

The first usually involve the instructors (and sometimes higher ranking students who play more active roles in the school…) and/or whichever entities are responsible for the space you train in. They’re often organizational or position-related and boil down to everyone wanting to get the best deal for themselves/their side; obviously, the more people/sides involved, the harder the compromise needed to resolve the situation. As much of a nuisance as these things are, they’ll always come up and must be dealt with in the best way possible, and with diplomacy.

The second type of situation is, for me, the more sensitive one. I’ve seen allot of people come and go over the 7 years I’ve been with YMAA. I’ve seen people who were training way before I was just give up, either by changes in lifestyle or, following the train of thought going with this post, due to differences that arose in the school.

I’d say that the vast majority of those differences come from miscomprehension between the parties involved. Believe me: I’ve watched two people arguing pretty intensely with each other, and they where both saying the exact same thing! The thing is, the way they were expressing themselves made it seem to one another that they were saying opposite things! Whenever I catch on to something like this I intervene and try to clear up the matter. Suffice to say that afterwards everyone just goes “How the hell did *that* just go there?”.

As for the rest… I guess some people just rub each other the wrong way, for whatever reasons. The problem is that if the tension builds up to a point where either student or teacher no longer fulfill their duties to one another, collapse is only a matter of time.

If the teacher no longer treats the student fairly and respectfully, if any kind of injustice is taking place, then he should be approached by the student and they should try to talk it out and settle their differences. If the problem persists, then the student should take it up to whoever is above their teacher and, if needed be, to Master Yang himself. The only reason I’d feel reluctant about addressing Master Yang is that I think we should all be able to sort this kind of thing amongst ourselves, without troubling him. But again, if all else fails…

Unfortunately (but probably more understandably), I usually see the “breakdown” of the student way before any perceivable misconduct on the part of the instructor. I say “perceivable” because the things we pick up on tend to vary greatly depending on how directly (or not) they concern us… but I digress. The thing is that usually it’s the student that makes the mistake of breaking whatever bonds of respect he should uphold in relation to his teacher. I’ve seen people that either because they were discontent with something or simply because they were too familiar (i.e., letting the friendship outside the kwoon overshadow the teacher/student relationship inside it) with their teacher, felt they could disrespect their instructor in front of the whole class, during practice. I’ve seen people question the teacher’s instructions because “they knew better”. I’ve seen people get more and more confrontational because they seemingly were not getting enough recognition, or at least that’s what they felt… Sooner or later, one way or another, these people left their school.

Dissident said:

1) the Master Yang was my master not him...and to Master Yang I've never questioned his methods.

It's true that Dr. Yang is your master, but when he isn't around your teacher is his direct representative. You should respect his decisions and follow his instruction. If you’ve never questioned Master Yang’s methods, why would you question your teacher’s?

Being a student myself, there are two phrases that I’ve heard from Master Yang which strike me as particularly appropriate:

“A student should have no dignity in front of his teacher.” (Not the exact words, but you guys get the idea…)

“Round on the outside, square on the inside.” (Simply brilliant!)

I guess my message would be to fight these things the best you can. “Win” or “lose”, hopefully the necessary people will get an eye-opener, think long and hard, and a lot more good than bad will ultimately arise from the situation. But fight fair and proper: if you’re not being respected the way you should, don’t stoop down to the same level.

Sorry for the long rant.

Peace.

[Dissident]

I don't want to take this discussion any further but N0M4D:

Quote:
1) the Master Yang was my master not him...and to Master Yang I've never questioned his methods.


It's true that Dr. Yang is your master, but when he isn't around your teacher is his direct representative. You should respect his decisions and follow his instruction. If you’ve never questioned Master Yang’s methods, why would you question your teacher’s?

Obviously cause his methods are the opposite of Master Yang teaches...

Regards,

[scramasax57]

then, yet again, you should bring this to master yang. if it is really and firmly your belief that this instructor is a discredit to master yang and is no longer a competent representative, you have a responsibility to do something about it.

[N0M4D]

Dissident: what Scramasax57 said.

Thanks, Eric: you took the words right out of my... erm... fingers?!