Forms

Discuss shaolin longfist, white crane or other styles. Theory, practice and applications. Please stay on topic.

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Forms

Postby baihe shifu » Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:50 pm

Please, your thoughts on forms (Quantao/Taolu).

How many forms is enough?

Should the focus be less forms deeper understanding?

Is there any historical basis for this? If so, please share.
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Postby yat_chum » Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:26 am

Hi, just for clarity, what do you mean by the term form?
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Re: Forms

Postby yeniseri » Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:15 pm

CMA is the only place where I have seen and heard people claim forms knowledge is one of the more important things in study! Today, less is better as long as you know the background of it, inside/outside,etc of it and have an overall understanding. Back in my younger days (I didn't understand it back then and my understanding was limited) when I was stationed in Okinawa, I would see a few dedicated practitioners doing various versions of Sanchin just standing there doing their 'movements' and as I matured (i think), I came to an understanding that outside work is meaningless unless the inside is built on a firm foundation hence the outward physical conditioning lifing of objects to help power generation, limb strength, limb stability, etc then everything falls into place. It is nice doing form but without the external conditioning, lack of internal focus, inability in 'strength" generation not going into but coming out of the presentation (form), the beauty is just for its own sake, which is great for trophies and performace art. Nothing is wrong with it but it will be ineffectual!

The goal should be on deeper understanding not on form itself but on utility, depth of vision and abiloty to understand and show the meaning with the form expression.
Form carries the historical record but today there is nothing behind or inside the form. It is empty but it look good!
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Re: Forms

Postby pete5770 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:09 pm

yeniseri wrote: Today, less is better as long as you know the background of it,....
.... I came to an understanding that outside work is meaningless unless the inside is built on a firm foundation hence the outward physical conditioning lifing of objects to help power generation, limb strength, limb stability, etc then everything falls into place. It is nice doing form but without the external conditioning, lack of internal focus, inability in 'strength" generation not going into but coming out of the presentation (form), the beauty is just for its own sake, which is great for trophies and performace art. Nothing is wrong with it but it will be ineffectual!

The goal should be on deeper understanding not on form itself but on utility, depth of vision and abiloty to understand and show the meaning with the form expression.
Form carries the historical record but today there is nothing behind or inside the form. It is empty but it look good!


Just because I'm well educated on the musical aspects of the violin, am well aware of it's history, and the great masters(both makers and players), doesn't mean I can play worth a lick if I neglect the "outside work" or practice, as you call it. At least I think that's what you're saying?? On the other side I suppose I could be good fiddler without knowing an extensive amount about great players, makers, teachers, and violin history. I'd just have to practice alot. It's the old question of "How do I get to Carnegie Hall?". Practice, practice, practice. I think the practice itself makes you a stronger player, a better player, and while there are a lot of mental aspects to playing well, once you get started your brain will automatically become fully engaged in what you're doing.
In any case I definately believe in Tai Chi "form" practice on a daily basis. It's what builds Tai Chi and shows you the way to get better. Makes you think too.
As for "expression" in Tai Chi I try not to let the form contain much in the way of outward signs
of what you call expression. I tend to think about what each move is for and what the intent is but not show it outwardly. If that makes any sense?
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Re: Forms

Postby yeniseri » Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:55 am

pete5770 wrote:I definately believe in Tai Chi "form" practice on a daily basis. It's what builds Tai Chi and shows you the way to get better. Makes you think too.
As for "expression" in Tai Chi I try not to let the form contain much in the way of outward signs of what you call expression. I tend to think about what each move is for and what the intent is but not show it outwardly. If that makes any sense?


Forms transmit a progression of the historical basis of an art so in that initial sense, it is positive, As an example, when we look at Okinawan Crane Systems and we compare with their South China origin, we see the thread that unites the two along with adding or substraction and why of the changes over time. Same with Taijiquan, from its synthesis to Chen to Yang, Wu2, Wu3, Sun and Beijing styles.

Form without reference or just to learn it, appears empty! Learning hundreds of form just to learn, I guess, for those who find it appealing, is OK. For me, it is jibengong (basics/shenfa) of a system that makes a specific form come alive as opposed to the repetition just to do it.

My most reent study has been why did Yang Chengfu standardize the Yang form? No one know except his haidresser! Actually, the form(s) associated with his brothers are basically the same but there are 'distinct' and unique components that defy explanation. IN the older pre Chengfu curriculum, one sees a variety of stepping formats whlie post Chengfu, there is standardized stepping'. These are my present exercises for the next 50 years!
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Re: Forms

Postby pete5770 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:42 am

yeniseri wrote:
pete5770 wrote:I definately believe in Tai Chi "form" practice on a daily basis. It's what builds Tai Chi and shows you the way to get better. Makes you think too.
As for "expression" in Tai Chi I try not to let the form contain much in the way of outward signs of what you call expression. I tend to think about what each move is for and what the intent is but not show it outwardly. If that makes any sense?


Form without reference or just to learn it, appears empty! Learning hundreds of form just to learn, I guess, for those who find it appealing, is OK. For me, it is jibengong (basics/shenfa) of a system that makes a specific form come alive as opposed to the repetition just to do it.



I'm following what you're saying and tend to agree, to a point. Still, I find that spending a few hours daily at Yang long form sort of revs up my mind and gets me thinking about many, many things. Not all at once though. Maybe today I thought about the shape of my hand and how it appeared a bit too relaxed or not quite the right way, so a little extra thought went into correcting this and it helped. Why was I not holding it correctly in the first place? Maybe over the years I had gotten lazy about it. So, for me, basics make their appearance(off and on) on a daily basis when doing the form. What will tommorrow bring to mind? Maybe something about how I step backward will rear its head. Lately Snake Creeps Down doesn't seem to be working as well as it has in the past, doesn't feel quite right. Why? Who knows but I'll give it a shot at working it out. Yes, for me, long form daily. It's one of those things that "the more I know, the less I know" and the search for answers is what it's all about.
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