Barriers to training

[Sorcerer]

Finding the money and time is the hardest part of training Gong Fu.

[sun the best]

I agree. Living in France, there's no real gongfu, so i am planning to go to china for 10 years searching for sun style arts. I have to save more than 500 euros per month for 10 years, in order to study full time. But until then i'll be too old (35+) to master anything. Sometimes i wish i was born in hebei during the 19th century.

[Josh Young]

Every step you take, every motion you make, can develop your kungfu.

Kung Fu is free. Never let money or time get in the way.

[sun the best]

You know that learning solely from books/DVD is worst than no training at all, because it creates bad habits. How I am supposed to "put Qi to the dantian" or "fuse mind with Qi" with a book ?! I bought books of sun lutang, and there is no explanation on santishi training, how you train your mind etc... How do I train push hand and rou shou alone ?! Learning a form and be content with it means you are a dancer, nothing more. Surely you don't live in a dangerous place, or don't have the courage to learn applications. Name a master who learnt alone ? Nobody did. I dont want to be a dancer, but a master

[Josh Young]

To fight is to dance,
One either dances alone
Or with a partner

To be a master?
One must dance well.


As for leaning to use yi and qi together, and to sink the qi to the Dan tien
This can be as hard to learn from a person
As it is from a book

The most dangerous place to live
Is inside ones beliefs

I've been lucky I suppose
To train with others in push hands and such

So now I dance fairly well,
Applications are not hard to learn if you have partners to dance with
But self mastery... that is something nobody can teach.

[sun the best]

Mastery is just a matter of luck, finding a real master when you are still young, and have the money. You don't know how many westerners like me are able to train 10hours/day every day for 10 years if they are lucky. Nowadays it is just dancers who train a small form for 30 minutes, not event he traditional form, like "tai chi for arthritis" or whatever. To be a master of the level of sun lutang is my only goal, not the watered down ballet taught in a McDojo.

[Josh Young]

Mastery is a matter of work.

Not luck.

No teacher can make you a master.

Not even Sun Lutang himself could.

Only you, can make you into a master.

There are a lot of good teachers and styles out there, not just mcdojos but whole systems with excellent applications and weapons work too.

It is said that lately in china that there is the same mcdojo problem.

Attitude is everything, a good teacher will turn away students who do not have the right one.

[sun the best]

glad you have lots of instructors/money, this is not the case for most. The closest sun style instructor lives nearly 1000 kilometers away from me, and is only 3rd or 4th duan at best. I know a 7th duan master (Deng FuMing) who teach the complete system but it cost 500 dollars/month, and since i need a minimum of 10 years of training, I need about 50000 dollars. If I was born son of this teacher, it would be free and I would already be 5th duan. First luck, then hard work.

[John the Monkey mind]

glad you have lots of instructors/money, this is not the case for most. The closest sun style instructor lives nearly 1000 kilometers away from me, and is only 3rd or 4th duan at best. I know a 7th duan master (Deng FuMing) who teach the complete system but it cost 500 dollars/month, and since i need a minimum of 10 years of training, I need about 50000 dollars. If I was born son of this teacher, it would be free and I would already be 5th duan. First luck, then hard work.

Why do you even think Deng FuMing will be training for 500 dollars a month years from now? The chances are he will be doing something else or charging more. You will have spent 10 years doing nothing.

Go train for a year in the Xing Yi only, come back, train and find people to practice with even if you have to teach them, then go back for another year. A lot of progression is practice alone so you dont have to be with the Master 24 7. This way you have a chance to make progress.

Sun himself did not see all his students constantly and some of them he had do standing exercises for years on end before he showed them the rest of the system in under a year. You dont need the master for training the basics once you have been shown them properly.

In Poland there are a lot f VERY good YMAA instructors and when they started out they were lucky if they had a few weeks a year with Dr Yang. They trained hard alone and in groups the things he showed them.

The way you are trying to do it you will learn nothing as you will never start. Stances can be learned well in a year and then trained hard on your own for a year. With solid fundamentals you will learn quickly next time you go to see the master. Sun himself learnt Bagua exceptionally fast as he had rock solid basics.

Why are you so court up on the Duan? That is not even the traditional way of rating an instructor.

[sun the best]

Why do you even think Deng FuMing will be training for 500 dollars a month years from now? The chances are he will be doing something else or charging more. You will have spent 10 years doing nothing.

It's a risky bet I am aware, I prefer doing no training in my life than being a "fairly good disciple" at best, only the highest level interest me. Better do others hobbies than wasting my time 1hour a day doing 10 minutes santishi and 50 minutes 5 elements.

Go train for a year in the Xing Yi only, come back, train and find people to practice with even if you have to teach them, then go back for another year. A lot of progression is practice alone so you dont have to be with the Master 24 7. This way you have a chance to make progress.

I need 5000 dollars for one year training, that I don't have. Doing santishi 1hour for 1 year is not enough for mastery, when I come back 10 minutes santishi only per day will nullify one year of rigorous training.

In Poland there are a lot f VERY good YMAA instructors and when they started out they were lucky if they had a few weeks a year with Dr Yang. They trained hard alone and in groups the things he showed them.

Not my fault if masters don't like/come in France. Sure I regret not being born in Poland. Being french is useless if you want top quality martial arts and instructors.

Sun himself did not see all his students constantly and some of them he had do standing exercises for years on end before he showed them the rest of the system in under a year. You dont need the master for training the basics once you have been shown them properly.

That is why nobody is at sun's level. Only Sun Cunzhou was nearly as good.
Sun himself lived/studied with guo almost 10 years straight.

The way you are trying to do it you will learn nothing as you will never start. Stances can be learned well in a year and then trained hard on your own for a year. With solid fundamentals you will learn quickly next time you go to see the master. Sun himself learnt Bagua exceptionally fast as he had rock solid basics.

Stances training is not something you see once and do by yourself. The mental training side of santishi (3 internal harmonies) requires proper instructions every day. And you don't learn the micro-alignments in few month of training, for example an jing skills for santishi. Sun learnt bagua in 4 years because he was already at guo's level in xingyi, which is far beyond than "good basics".

I laugh when people say they do traditional arts when they don't train the traditional way (1hour santishi for 3 years etc...). The training of the 19th century is what interest me, not tai chi for arthritis. I don't want to be at a level of yang ming jin or chen xiaowang. To be like master sun, I need to train exactly like he did (quality AND quantity). Like in the golden age, even a master of the caliber of chen xiaowang would be considered only "top disciple" , not even master.

[Josh Young]

First luck, then hard work.

Mastery is just a matter of luck, finding a real master when you are still young, and have the money.

I prefer doing no training in my life than being a "fairly good disciple" at best, only the highest level interest me.

Being french is useless...

Sun was good because he applied himself and worked hard,
and because he wasn't French.

why would you even want martial skill at all?
what good will it do you?
you planning to battle some french ninjas or something?

[sengtsan]

Sun the best,

you seem to be quite frustrated and this frustration has obviously nourished the anger you are now directing towards yourself, the modern world etc.

Well welcome to reality. You are not born in the 19th century, you are a french guy and won't be a tajiquan/ xingyiquan/ whatever-quan master in this life even if you go now to China for ten years. It is simply not your life. Unless you see it and be in peace with it, you will live a sad life and rot the life of the people around you.

As for Chen Xiaowang you should see that your frustation makes a fool of you. His daily training was as long as a daytime job for a European. You obviously didn't train with him and repeat fancy ideas about what the real masters are. You probably made up those ideas by reading mythology about master X or Y on the net. I don't say that Sun is not a great master but since you personally know NONE of them and has not reach the level you are dreaming of, you are just throwing out there your frustration.
Chen Xiaowang is giving courses all over the world. Go and see for yourself. Push hands with him.

As they say in French, " tu jettes le bébé avec l'eau du bain". 2 hours of daily training during ten years will lead you to a point that you can't imagine now, and that is better than the nothing you will achieve if you are only dreaming of something that is impossible and get frustrated about it.

But lastly and more importantly, if you love martial arts, then you don't practice to achieve something unbelievable, you train to be with your lover because martial arts are your beloved and are part of you. You can't train a minute or an hour or 6 hours a day if don't love it. And if you love it, you accept what YOUR life has to offer you: if it is 1 hour a day, take it. If you don't want it, forget completely about it and sign up to a dance class.

Instead of insulting Yang jwing ming, Chen xiaowang and beating up yourself with the idea that you live the wrong life, first see what you can do for you NOW. You don't know what can happen tomorrow or in 2013. You may not be alive. Today is a good day to train if you are alive. I know someone who trains everyday with half of a lung because it is a love story between him and Martial arts. Don't complain, just act and do what you have to do.

[John the Monkey mind]

Why do you even think Deng FuMing will be training for 500 dollars a month years from now? The chances are he will be doing something else or charging more. You will have spent 10 years doing nothing.

It's a risky bet I am aware, I prefer doing no training in my life than being a "fairly good disciple" at best, only the highest level interest me. Better do others hobbies than wasting my time 1hour a day doing 10 minutes santishi and 50 minutes 5 elements.

Go train for a year in the Xing Yi only, come back, train and find people to practice with even if you have to teach them, then go back for another year. A lot of progression is practice alone so you dont have to be with the Master 24 7. This way you have a chance to make progress.

I need 5000 dollars for one year training, that I don't have. Doing santishi 1hour for 1 year is not enough for mastery, when I come back 10 minutes santishi only per day will nullify one year of rigorous training.

In Poland there are a lot f VERY good YMAA instructors and when they started out they were lucky if they had a few weeks a year with Dr Yang. They trained hard alone and in groups the things he showed them.

Not my fault if masters don't like/come in France. Sure I regret not being born in Poland. Being french is useless if you want top quality martial arts and instructors.

Sun himself did not see all his students constantly and some of them he had do standing exercises for years on end before he showed them the rest of the system in under a year. You dont need the master for training the basics once you have been shown them properly.

That is why nobody is at sun's level. Only Sun Cunzhou was nearly as good.
Sun himself lived/studied with guo almost 10 years straight.

The way you are trying to do it you will learn nothing as you will never start. Stances can be learned well in a year and then trained hard on your own for a year. With solid fundamentals you will learn quickly next time you go to see the master. Sun himself learnt Bagua exceptionally fast as he had rock solid basics.

Stances training is not something you see once and do by yourself. The mental training side of santishi (3 internal harmonies) requires proper instructions every day. And you don't learn the micro-alignments in few month of training, for example an jing skills for santishi. Sun learnt bagua in 4 years because he was already at guo's level in xingyi, which is far beyond than "good basics".

I laugh when people say they do traditional arts when they don't train the traditional way (1hour santishi for 3 years etc...). The training of the 19th century is what interest me, not tai chi for arthritis. I don't want to be at a level of yang ming jin or chen xiaowang. To be like master sun, I need to train exactly like he did (quality AND quantity). Like in the golden age, even a master of the caliber of chen xiaowang would be considered only "top disciple" , not even master.

I understand the subtlety of the of the Santishi, I had lessons in Sun style last year in England. It is a very deep practice with a lot of hidden mechanics. Still I know just about sufficient detail to practice alone. The power it can give you is almost miraculous, one of my fellow Xing Yi students used to train with me in a Southern Kung Fu style years back, now after 4 years in Xing Yi he is way more powerful than me even though I was better before. My teacher blow me away and he has not trained in China just really, really hard. Get a job in a city that has a teacher and train with him. Thats what I do. And dont spend 10 on the Santishi and 50 on five elements, spend 50 on Santishi and 10 on the five elements. Oh and N Yang is in France in October teaching Xing Yi at a seminar. Sadly I cant make it.

Even 2 hours a day will give you skills most people will think are unattainable. Once you have them leave your day job and teach martial arts. Then you would have the time to practice. Still its a path of sacrifice as you wont get rich that way.

I am now looking for a Xing Yi teacher in Warsaw if anyone knows one? Until then practice.

[Josh Young]

http://aymta.org/home/resources/wwymt.html
I found some excellent martial art resources for taiji in France from this site, taiji with great applications, weapons forms and training methods.

If I lived in France I would look into it.
Apparently France is a great place to learn martial arts that result in real martial skill. But then I think savate is quite good as well, so is Canne de combat.

The martial arts of France are quite good.

[sun the best]

I don't like savate because it is only external, like MMA or whatever, and it is much less traditional since it is also a sport now, it is becoming like taekwondo or judo. There are few teachers in Paris, but France is not small, it is 300 kilometers from where I live, and living in Paris is expensive. I know there is a Yiquan school about 50km away but I don't like yiquan because it is too much static, too much postures, you don't move as much as in bagua, and "forms" aren't as martial as in xingyi. I still think of it, who knows.

People say I should practice, but what ? Once I tried to train horse stance, I only hold 1 minute, about 5 times per day, it is very painful, and one month later I could not do more than 1 minute, I wasn't relaxed enough maybe. Anyway it is external training, what is the point to have damaged legs/knees ?

About Chen Xiaowang, I know that he could beat all the MMA machomen, he was lucky because he is born grandson of chen fake, thus direct access to authenticy at age 5 and was rich enough not to work like we all do and thus train full time. Why would I go to chen jiagou anyway ? I don't speak chinese, my spoken english is as of a 5 years old native, and I will still need money anyway. And if I would challenge/test him, I would not do pushing, but a direct punch to his face at full speed/power after a feint to his stomach.

I will just save as much money as I can for 10 years, and go to china and train full time for 10 years, then open a school in France and continue training full time for decades.

[sengtsan]

you said: "[b]And if I would challenge/test him, I would not do pushing, but a direct punch to his face at full speed/power after a feint to his stomach[/b]."

As soon as you have done it, either with Chen Xiaowang or any of his senior disciples, please let us know the results

[John the Monkey mind]

I don't like savate because it is only external, like MMA or whatever, and it is much less traditional since it is also a sport now, it is becoming like taekwondo or judo. There are few teachers in Paris, but France is not small, it is 300 kilometers from where I live, and living in Paris is expensive. I know there is a Yiquan school about 50km away but I don't like yiquan because it is too much static, too much postures, you don't move as much as in bagua, and "forms" aren't as martial as in xingyi. I still think of it, who knows.

People say I should practice, but what ? Once I tried to train horse stance, I only hold 1 minute, about 5 times per day, it is very painful, and one month later I could not do more than 1 minute, I wasn't relaxed enough maybe. Anyway it is external training, what is the point to have damaged legs/knees ?


About Chen Xiaowang, I know that he could beat all the MMA machomen, he was lucky because he is born grandson of chen fake, thus direct access to authenticy at age 5 and was rich enough not to work like we all do and thus train full time. Why would I go to chen jiagou anyway ? I don't speak chinese, my spoken english is as of a 5 years old native, and I will still need money anyway. And if I would challenge/test him, I would not do pushing, but a direct punch to his face at full speed/power after a feint to his stomach.

I will just save as much money as I can for 10 years, and go to china and train full time for 10 years, then open a school in France and continue training full time for decades.

Your wrong about Yi Quan. You talk about dancing being weak and then you say you dislike Yi Quan because of form. Form is the dancing and stillness is the power.

When I was studying Xing Yi my teacher used some Yi Quan to help develop the internal aspect of Xing Yi. Yi Quan is Xing Yi striped of form.

Take a Yi Quan or a Taiji class for the next ten years wile you save, then you will develop faster when studying Xing Yi. Taiji will help you relax more and that takes years to get and you need relaxation for Xing Yi.

[Josh Young]

it occured to me that Sun Lu-tang was a theme here and that the taiji line i was initiated into came from Chen Wei-ming, who was a student of Sun for several years before leaving to learn Taiji from Yang Cheng-fu. I think this says a lot about taiji, it is known that Wei-ming never stopped doing Bagua, but that he did take up ardent study of taiji and reached a very high level of skill. Research this for yourself if you like.

[MarkHill256]

Mine is time commitment.. I have lot's of things to do every now and then not having much time to concentrate on trainings..


"training on the use of my collapsible batons and master it"

[Sorcerer]

Time management is crucial, today. We must not get sucked into the rat race if we are to reach higher states of existence. The first steptto trainin and a barrier to training, is our current culture, it nurses vice (through technology) But, to survive, we have to play the game. Learning Kung Fu through this game is a way to train, but, it does not feel as spiritual. The ascesis of modern work is still very young.