Master Wong Kiew Kit

[jpmaus]

Do any of you guys happen to know if Master Yang and Master Wong have ever had any interactions? I'm curious about the differences between the YMAA and the SHAOLIN WAHNAM INSTITUTE... For example, both suggest different fundamental stances hand forms, so I am just curious...

[yat_chum]

I'm curious as to why this is important to you?

[John the Monkey mind]

Master Wong seems to have trained in even more styles than Master Yang. Master Wong's group is also a lot more expensive lol.

Both are respected but have a very different approach I think, look at organisation structure ect. Personally I would rather train with Dr Yang as he seems very strait foreword and practical in approach but then I haven't trained with Master Wong's group.
I respect both however and value their writings.
I have never herd of them meeting but it wouldn't be that surprising if some of their senior student knew each other from shows ect.

[jpmaus]

yat_chum... I don't live anywhere near where I could learn Shaolin Kung Fu from a teacher. The only Martial Arts schools within driving distance are Tae Kwan Do, and so I must try and teach myself using books and DVDs. I have Master Yang's "fundamentals" DVD, as well as his Beginner Chaqguan DVD, I also have Master Wong's "The Art of Shaolin..." book. Understanding the relations between these two masters is important to me because it might help me understand the difference between their two approaches, the common ancestors of both approaches, and so on, and thus help me negotiate my own training in a more informed manner!

[John the Monkey mind]

I would focus on Dr Yang's DVD's and books as it is relativity easy to follow a progression through his syllabus. Master Wong's writing will help your training wile thinking about intent and Gong training/conditioning.

Dr Yang's DVD's and books for style, applications and Chi Gong are very hard to beet however Wong Kiew Kit's writings are useful. I think that Master Wong's style is interesting but you would have grate difficulty learning it from books. Dr Yang's DVD's are very good and I have made real progress from his White Crane DVD's and book.

If you don't have any experience stick with the long fist as the book is comprehensive and the DVD's extensive. I would recommend the White Crane Chi Gong DVD and book though as they have made me a lot stronger.

Much as it pains me to say it, you should also attend the Tae Kwan Do for a wile to develop funder-mental flexibility and sense of distance/co-ordination as it will help with the long fist. Have you got any past experience with the martial arts?

[yat_chum]

Hi jpmaus,
I should imagine that many people you will speak to on martial arts forums will have started in other arts before beginning their style of choice. My first formal training was in Taekwondo the only style readily available in my area, I then went of to study other Korean styles, which for some reason seem to be strong in my home town and surrounding areas. I would say that benefits of learning Taekwondo would out weight any drawbacks.

I am unable to comment on Wong Kiew Kit's style as I no longer own any of his books.

Where in the world are you?

[jpmaus]

Right now I'm living in rural southern Minnesota (USA). As I said, there is a Martial Arts "Fitness Center" here, but since I'm just starting out anyways, I figured I'd wait...

What I've been doing is practicing the Fundamental Stances for one hour everyday. I figure until I can hold Ma Bu for five minutes, until I am competent at Fu Hu Bu and Zuo Pan Bu, I probably don't need to worry too much about anything else.

The question is, how do I proceed once I feel comfortable with the fundamental stances? The YMAA "Fundamentals" DVD goes on to demonstrate punches, kicks, and walking/jumping/hopping stuff. Is this how Kung Fu is best learned? Or instead of learning punches, kicks, etc., should I use the YMAA "Changquan" DVD and start with Lian Bu Quan--learning my punches and kicks as part of that "Form"?

Maybe it sounds stupid or cheesy, like I've watched too many movies or something, but I'd like to learn Shaolin Kung Fu as "authentically" as possible, that is, not from Danny McBride in the "Foot Fist Way."

There is no question, I want the confidence that would come from being able to defend myself, but more important to me than any of that, is learning an ancient spiritual art that developed over centuries which cultivates balance, strength, and spiritual power. As much more experienced marital artists, what do you guys think?

[John the Monkey mind]

Practice punches and kicks before you start the forms as otherwise you wont get them right. Traditionally it was horse stance, then other stances, basic punching in horse stance and later in mountain climbing stance ect depending on style. Basically be very comfortable in stances and at striking from stances before you study a set. To put it most simply practice the fundamental DVD until you can do all the basics at least mostly correctly and you are able to move in the stances without losing balance or alignment. Then move to the sets.

If you want to be uba authentic and bore your self to death get in Ba Bu and punch, do this till you can do it for an hour a day then do this for two years lol now that's old school.

Back to reality once you have studied a set come back to the fundamentals again and check that at each stage of the set you are staying true to them. Later you have breathing, intent, sense of enemy ect.....

Have you got a training partner? It would go a lot faster if you have.

If you can attend seminars even if you have to travel for them as at least you get to see how it should be done.

I still recommend attending some sort of martial arts class for a bit as it will be much easier learning with some experience and in TKD some of the kicks will be similar ect but its up to you. With kung fu stay relaxed until your strikes connect, don't cut of your flow and power by being tense.

[yat_chum]

Stances and footwork is a GOOD way to begin your training, power begins from the feet. Footwork is often a neglected part of training, it was the most common reason for getting poor marks during gradings when I was practising Wing Chun Kuen and is often highlighted when people progress to weapons training. I can not over emphasize the importance of practising footwork.

[jpmaus]

Okay, so along with stances, but before punching, I should become somewhat competent in footwork: Stepping, Crab, Snake, Duck, Seven Star. Does that look like an exhaustive list with respect to footwork, or is there other types of footwork you guys would consider "fundamental?"

And once I've got those, which will obviously take AT LEAST three months, move on to punches while holding the stances?

Which type of Changquan does Master Yang teach? Chaquan, Huaguan, Hoingquan, Baoquan? etc. Or is it style all its own that was synthesized from these at the Ching Woo Athletic Association?

Also, how do you guys divide up a form? For example, in Master Wong's system, you link patterns to form sequences, and link sequences to form sets... Master Yang doesn't seem to teach patterns (e.g., "Black Tiger Steals Heart," "Poisonous Snake Shoots Venom," "Beauty Looks at Mirror," etc.) or am I missing something...

[John the Monkey mind]

Its a long time since I read the Long Fist book so not to up on the lineage although it is in there and its from a military background, Dr Yang's teacher was a military instructor I think and his Master was amazing. I ing Woo style think there is some connection to the Ching Woo Athletic Association although its not a Ch. Anyway its all here http://www.ymaa.com/articles/history-of ... st-kung-fu and looks well worth a read.

So stances, then stepping then punching and kicking in stances, then with stepping. As for the steps I guess you don't have to study the ones he says are from White Crane.
As for construction of the sets they do have the flowery names but I don't think Dr Yang uses them, the names are just poetically described of the moves anyway so don't worry over much at this stage. Just study the DVD and get the book as all the movements are shown with names and descriptions/explanation as well as applications on the same page, its very clear and a very good book.

[jpmaus]

Thanks allot John... What is a good way to practice punching? That is, let's say I'm going to do an hour a day, should I just divide each type of punch over that hour so that I'm repeating each different type for five minutes or whatever, left then right? And, not to be too greedy with the information asking, but what about Chin Na, when should I work that into the syllabus?

[yat_chum]

Also do some weight baring exercises on your knuckles to begin to condition your fists ready for use. Push ups with fists in vertical and horizontal position. Do these on carpet at first.

Don't forget to keep your arm slightly bend when punching in the air to prevent damage to muscles and tendons.

Do you have anyone else to train with?

[John the Monkey mind]

I would split the types of punching at this stage and do both sides, it might be a good idea to do more of the basic strike than the others. Anyway you can always do more of one type at a later date (always on both sides) but at the moment you need to be able to do a range well so you can move on to sets. Also its a good way of building strength and condition as well as core strength, balance and core/waist flexibility. An hour would do the trick nicely and when mixed with stances and steeping you will be making a very efficient use of your time.

Chin Na comes later, once you can move and strike well you could work it in but I would wait until you have studied 2 or so sets. You could start some of the Chin Na strength exercises now if you feel you have to, Dr Yang's books and DVD's cover that well but this might distract and distract from your basics. You will need a partner for Chin Na.

yat_chum has a very good point about the knuckle push ups as it will produce good alignment and strengthen your body along the structure needed to deliver strikes, also wrists are prone to injury and so need building up.

A question I have for yat_chum. Would you keep arms slightly bent when candle training? I tend not to but tense up on the very end to avoid injury and I don't quite reach the max but the bend is hard to see. I am aiming for hard soft, rattan type jing.

[jpmaus]

Thanks again, both you guys... Let me ask you, have you guys done finger, fist, and forearm, etc., conditioning? I saw on this program called Fight Science that bone conditioning really does make your bones stronger. It's amazing.

How long have you guys been doing Kung Fu, and since what age, if you don't mind my asking? Have either of you ever competed?

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[John the Monkey mind]

I started martial arts at 15 and I am now 28. I have done some conditioning, finger tip push ups, knuckle push ups, I have done elbow push ups but not for a long time. I sometimes work on my fist for phoenix eye but not as much as I should. Are conditioning has taken a bit of a back seat as it is easier with a training partner. I am also looking to start palm training and am just waiting for the equipment to arrive.
In many ways I am still a beginner and I am focusing on the basics this year and have made progress in the last 4 or so months.

Back to conditioning, I feel you need a good base of strength before you start much more than conditioning the fist. What is the point if you Iron Palm is attached to a weak solder and back?

Don't make the mistake of getting ahead of your self in your training you will only reach a limited point then you will just have to start again. My first teacher although very skilled was sadly not mad about the basics in the class so I ended up knowing a lot but being easily overcome by someone with more Gong. You will hear it a lot but the basics is what you have to master, its more or less all there is.

[jpmaus]

Thanks John, of course you're right, I was just curious... I'm just working on the Fundamental Stances now... Speaking of which, I have a terrible time with "Tame the Tiger (Pu Bu)" stance.... Quite frankly, I'm just not flexible or strong enough to do it... How can I build up to that stance, or condition myself for it?

[John the Monkey mind]

I know how you feel it hard not to get of balance, its a lower back flexibility thing. We are doing it it my Taiji class at the moment.

First you need a good low and wide horse stance were you are not leaning forward. Then when can do that drop into taming tiger stance and then swap sides over and over again keep you back arm up and your foreword arm down and just keep on till tired. This will open up your hip flexibility and stretch the legs and back it will also build strength. Later you can try getting in the stance and holding it.

Flexibility is a on going battle for me as well but horse stance helps with it a lot.

[yat_chum]

A question I have for yat_chum. Would you keep arms slightly bent when candle training? I tend not to but tense up on the very end to avoid injury and I don't quite reach the max but the bend is hard to see. I am aiming for hard soft, rattan type jing.

Hi John, I hadn't done any candle hitting for years, I tried it out last night and found out that I have a tendency to release my punch as I am focusing on the candle. I woke up this morning and can feel that I have done damage. I found it possible to still put out the candle from a distance of just over fifteen centimetres (6 inches) today when holding back my punch (unfortunately I was not able to do this consistently ). You don't have put out the candle though, I find it a easier to see the direction of the power when the flame is still ignited. As you probably know you are looking for a clear backward movement of the flame with no shaking in random directions.

Let me know how you get on.

http://www.ymaa.com/articles/martial-ar ... e-training

[bowser666]

The best advice anyone could give is to keep practicing to make progress. The more you practice your stances, the better and easier they will become. That goes for any technique. The only thing with home schooling is to make sure you are not practicing the wrong technique over and over, because it makes it harder to unlearn when you do get formal training.