Iron Palm?

[Yue]

Basically, you strike in four different ways at a bag of mung beans, gravel or steel shot and then massage with an herbal solution called dit da jow. Some of the strikes seem like they would screw up your meridians in the hands, though. One of the strikes uses the finger tips, which supposedly damages eyesight, and another strike centers right on the laogong cavity in the palm. Any input?

[darth_freak]

yup. Don't practice it. Or not wholly. Use a spade or a shovel with a handle made of rough wood and your hands will get hard. You shouldn't practice Iron Palm through DVDs. A master is required for that.

Also, there're already some topics about Iron Palm.

[Yue]

Thanks. For a while I was thinking about practicing it, because it supposedly builds up the ability to damage the opponent's internal functions with even a light tap, but then I found out that jow is toxic and that the meridians are easily damaged. Still, I found an entire forum section devoted entirely to iron palm and iron shirt. These guys don't seem to know much about qi and its circulation, but some of them claim to have been practicing for over thirty years with no damage. Here's the link.

http://www.wle.com/forum/viewforum.php? ... 2f322ddf27

[Dvivid]

Discussed on this forum as well.
http://www.ymaa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1152&highlight=iron+palm

[DOM]

Wing Lam is the real Deal.I practiced his method for only a few months but was very impressed with his system.It takes extreme dedication and self decipline.In fact if you stick with it you will come to understand the true meening of Gung fu with out ever learning a single form!!!A good friend of mine gmc has been practicing it for a few years and has no injuries.The Jow is not dangerous ethier as long as you do not drink it.Wing Lam Shows three levels of iron palm.Maybe there are other levels that are dangerous.I do not know.But if you follow his directions and do not advance to the next stage to soon you should have no problems with serious injuries.Scraps and some bruising are common and acceptable.

[Yue]

Thanks, DOM. I'll look into buying his video and book.

[darth_freak]

well yeah. Accodring to Master Yang there're 10 levels of iron palm. So if you don't go far you may be alright. But you won't have a killing hand!!

[DOM]

well maybe not the kind of killing hand as they were looking for in using poisonous jow,and thrusting there hands in hot iron shavings.But I will say this you would not want to be slapped By Wing Lam or any of his advanced students.IMO not enough kung fu practitioners condition there hands these days enough to even be useful in combat.Most will damage there hands even if they hit a heavy bag with out gloves.If one realy wants the ability of true stopping power you must strike something besides air.Not just for conditioning but for timing and distancing. If you can not time the right moment to contract your muscles and emit your power/energy along with the proper distance your strikes will be ineffective. You will most likely even hurt your self.

[Yue]

.But I will say this you would not want to be slapped By Wing Lam or any of his advanced students..

I know what you mean. On that forum they say you can project chi into the opponent's body, i.e. a penetration strike, and you can damage or even destroy their internal organs.

[Lo Han]

I have heard many say that you can achive these same results through qigong pactice...


Lo Han

[DOM]

I am sure you can ,but you still need to develop timing and distancing to apply an effective strike and for this one must practice there skills and technics striking something .

[DOM]

I would never suggest hitting a very hard stationary surface . There is no need to hit such surfaces . Especially today . You should at least hit be able to hit something like a 70 lb heavy bag . If you can hit a leather Tai bag and sink in a good shot ,leaving a good depression with a nice popining sound , and move the bag with out gloves for a good number of reps I would say that is pretty good , and you definitely have stopping power . I would not suggest starting on such a bag though , work your way up .

[Dvivid]

This is discussed in a recent article by Master Yang:

http://www.ymaa.com/articles/martial-arts/common-injuries-hand

[Yue]

What exactly is the method that Dr. Yang keeps referring to? I remember reading, not sure where, on the Wing Lam forum, many people emphasizing the difference between red/iron sand palm and iron palm. Wing Lam's method stresses gradual conditioning of the hands. You spend six or more months on each of the three bags, and never skip bags. You also thoroughly apply dit da jow at the end of each training session. Finally, you never strike with enough force to inflict any damage. I don't see how that could be harmful in any way. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, I have nothing but respect for Dr. Yang and his extensive knowledge. I'm just curious as to what is so horrible about practicing this method.

[nyang]

I believe Dr. Yang always refers to his White Crane master's method of Iron Sand Palm training. I do not know if it has an officially accepted name today. The article posted by Dvivid explains a lot. Dr. Yang does mention that there are proper ways of training Iron Sand Palm, emphasizing a lot that you cannot build up Iron Sand Palm strength in just one day's time. The method he learned is a 12-stage process, requiring consistent training 2 hours per day for 3 years. I don't believe Dr. Yang or his classmates were allowed to learn past a certain stage, partly because Grandmaster Gseng stopped teaching entirely after some unfortunate circumstances arose. i think he also simply forbade students to learn past a certain stage of Iron Shirt. i think Grandmaster Gseng only learned to the 6th stage of Iron Shirt and Jing training, and already the power was quite impressive (he could pile 3 bricks on top of each other and break JUST the bottom brick). that type of power spells trouble when in the hands of young, immature, and impulsive minds.

Dr. Yang does say in the article, "If you are patient and start with light weights and gradually add to them, your body will be able to readjust and develop itself," which falls right in line with the Wing Lam method you described. So it does sound like the Wing Lam method is correct and minimizes as much damage as possible. The point that Dr. Yang raises is that many masters, in ancient times, kept many secrets about training Iron Sand Palm, specifically about healing your body after training. Secrets were very big in ancient times, because if you ever let your enemy know your secrets or training methods, you were vulnerable, as your enemy will either steal your training methods or find weaknesses and counterattacks to your techniques. Certainly, the advanced levels of Iron Sand Palm involve more than just applying Jow. But what do we do nowadays when we get injured? The most common thing we know is just to apply Jow. Maybe get some acupuncture or massage treatment as well. And we still rely heavily on doctors and technology for medical attention and care. But in ancient times, I'm pretty sure there was more to it. Probably more than just one generic Jow medicine to heal the body, more than just massage, more than just acupuncture. We are most likely missing much of those healing methods today, especially in Iron Shirt training. The situation is similar to how much of martial arts knowledge has passed away already with ancient masters. The masters were too conservative in dying with their secrets, and today, we are left with just parts of their knowledge.

I would guess that there are different herbs and medicines for each level of the Iron Shirt training. While we have the basic concept today about training gradually healing, there's that slight chance that much of the practice method has been kept secret by masters. So, we might not find out until we try it out ourselves. And perhaps, if anybody gets deep enough, we can re-experience what people of ancient times did and find new methods to heal our bodies (maybe even with modern technology?). But of course, that will come at a price for the "victims" of the "experiencing."

The Karate article that Dr. Yang mentions is just an unfortunate truth about many people today. They want seemingly invincible strength in a short amount of time, and they can do stupid things to try to achieve it. Dr. Yang used to train students in his Iron Shirt method, but it's simply very hard to keep up with in today's society and lifestyle. Eventually, the students stopped, partially because they could not consistently train and invest that kind of time. Another group of students took the method and tried doubling everything in the formula, thinking it would shorten the training time, but instead they developed severe health problems that even shocked and confused doctors when they were diagnosed.

In today's society, like Dr. Yang says, "Train patiently, and allow your body to develop gradually. This is the safest way to avoid these common injuries."

Personally, I don't believe in Iron Shirt training these days. There's no practical use for it today (in the age of guns), and the risk of developing injuries that might not become apparent until older ages is a bit of a killing point for me. Dr. Yang sometimes will talk about his White Crane master, and why Grandmaster Gseng eventually quit teaching White Crane entirely. Basically, Dr. Yang's classmates were involved in incidents where people ended up getting killed (accidentally), and the brick hand of the law ended up ruining their lives, whether it be in prison, or in one case, actually dying from being overly confident/careless.

Part of martial arts training, I believe, is having good strategy in your practice and how you interact with others. There's no point in starting a war. It's great to preserve the art of Iron Shirt, but I think we've lost much of the training method, so without the full recipe, we are gambling a bit with our health. Don't get me wrong, I think it's still good to condition your body, physically, slowly and gradually as noted above. But I probably won't get to as deep a level as the old school Iron Shirt training methods.

[darth_freak]

does Master Yang plan to form people to iron palm and shirt in the retreat center?

[nyang]

yep. it's listed there http://www.ymaa-retreatcenter.org/curriculum for the last 3-4 years of the training. i'd imagine it's the same method that Dr. Yang learned. for sure it's a very slow and gradual method.

[darth_freak]

it only says iron shirt conditionning. I guess Master Yang doesn't want to train iron palm after what happened with Master Gseng's student...

[ogrelee]

Hi, I am one of the guys that post on the wle forums.I just wanted to say that while I understand Master Yang's viewpoint, I believe that Iron palm and Iron body/shirt practice have a definite place in practicing kung fu. If only for the meditative and body structure building qualities.

Please feel free to join the discussions. You'll find some to be quite scholarly and well written. Thanks.

[John the Monkey mind]

A nice demonstrations of iron palm skills

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgFVDr2R ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulXzfJq3 ... re=related