Mastering sequences/forms

[Yue]

How many times do you typically practice a sequence/form before deciding to move on to the next one? I have practiced Lien Bu Chuan 350 times, and I'm not sure if I should shoot for 1000 times or move on to Gung Li Chuan. Any advice?

[darth_freak]

it depends on how you feel your form. What feeling you have when you practice, how focused you are. I don't know if 350 is a lot... What I know is that practicing others forms build up the previous forms.

But anyway, the 1000times things is mostly a statement to say that you have to practice a lot! But not only the forms, also the martial applications, your mind etc.

You could also go to a YMAA school where they do tests and ask to pass a test for lian bu quan. Or just get checked and corrected if it's necessary.

[Yue]

I have no access to a YMAA school where I live. I always thought that the one-thousand times thing was literal, like if someone attacks you your body will react before your mind does.

[citrus538]

Lian bu quan was the first form I ever learned. I think I practiced for 2-3 years before starting another form. After that I could feel comfortable with a form in 6-12 months, practicing almost every day. I still do lian bu quan at least once every time I train.

Sometimes I see people perform and notice their heels lifting off the ground when they shift stances from mountain climbing to 4-6, or they pause too long between techniques. I only feel comfortable doing a form when I can do the whole thing at full speed and power with deep, STABLE stances and no obvious mistakes. This forces you to build looseness, leg power and concentration.

[darth_freak]

Training forms doesn't train your reflexes!! You have to practice with someone. Have a partner who attacks you randomly and try to apply your form. Doing the form trains your body structure.

[Yue]

Thanks. I think I'm going to move on to Gung Li Chuan, because I can do Lien Bu Chuan without thinking about what I'm going to do next.

[misterwhite]

I would ask your instructor if it is time to move on. Only someone who knows what the form should look like, and can observe you doing the form can tell you if you are doing it sufficiently well to move on.

Each one of us has an unrealistic opinion of how we are doing. A video of you doing your form will be a complete shock. You won't believe how bad you look. Have someone take a video of you doing the form. It will show you what your instructor sees when you do the form, although not with his critical eye.

Just because you move on to the next in the series doesn't mean you stop practicing the old material.

[Yue]

Unfortunately I don't have an instructor. I learn Long Fist from books and DVDs.

[darth_freak]

so put one or some videos of yourself doing lian bu quan on youtube or somewhere and we'll tell you what we think about it. Of course, if we did according to YMAA rules, we'd need 2 instructors or 3 assistants to say whether it's okay or not. But still you can have an interesting feedback.
what do you think about that?

[Yue]

I'll try it as soon as I get my piece of dren pc to uplink with my video camera.

[yat_chum]

In the style of White Crane I was taught, the first form the Sam Chien was traditionally done at least 10,000 times before one was able progress in the style.

[Inga]

At Andover the children are expected to practice LBQ a minimum of 350 times after they have successfully learned the form before they test with Master Yang. Usually the instructor asks them to do the sequence 10 times a day for a few months. LBQ marks a pivotal point in their training, when they stop testing in class for tips (stripes on their belts) and start testing the rest of their material with Master Yang to achieve their black belt. It is an important foundation piece. The LBQ I passed with Master Yang was awful compared with my LBQ 2 years later. But that is supposed to happen, you improve with practice, and so all your material should improve as well. If I had waited another year to test my LBQ with Master Yang, my score would have been higher; some people like to wait until they are feeling it is perfect, because they want a high score or they are just perfectionists - some want to simply pass so they can move onto new material. As long as you do not forget what you have learned and continue to work on it and see new things in it, you will improve your kung fu. As misterwhite says, you don't stop working on anything, you just add to your inventory as it were. The twelve tan tuis are a wonderful warm up for me when I train. They are very basic, naturally, but I love them. They are hugely improved as well. I thought I was doing them correctly when I learned them, and technically perhaps I was, but they are better now. The timing, the depth of stances, power, etc. Gong Li Quan is practiced in the YMAA programme once you have all your foundations. It is a power sequence, used to teach one how to push off your root and coordinate the use of your hips and waist. It is more than good form and nice low stances, it is about starting to grasp how kung fu works. This is something that will not come to you if you have poor foundation, as citrus says, feet lifting off the ground. If you have a good, confident LBQ, I would say you could start GLQ - but I would not suggest forgetting LBQ, you should still practice it. You could even use it to warm up for your Gong Li Quan. I see you are in Missouri. I do not know if you can get to the East or West coast to coordinate with any of Master Yang's seminars, but if you can, I would highly recommend it. There are also YMAA schools around the country, there is one in Texas I believe. It would would be a good opportunity to have your material checked and get some corrections. And believe me, there will be corrections. We all have them. Another part of the training..always working to improve. Good luck with your progress! And if you get your vid on youtube post the link here so we can comment on it.

[Inga]

Yue, I spoke to my instructor about this tonight. Indeed, he says that once the whole of Lien Bu Quan has been learned, it takes 1,000 times to "make it your own". He knows this sequence inside and out. He can do it forwards, backwards, on the right side, the left side, the legs only, the arms only, the left hand only, the left hand only on the left side...

Now I know how much more I need to practice too : )

[Yue]

Inga: Thank you for the advice. I just learned the whole of Gung Li Chuan a couple days ago (I find it tough to learn from a book) but I have still been doing Lien Bu Chuan. I understand fully how important basics are, and I will definitely shoot for one-thousand.

[Inga]

You are using the "green book", the Long Fist book? It will be hard to learn it accurately from that for a couple of reasons. It is an excellent reference, one we all use at the school, but I believe it should not be used exclusively to learn. I know you said you have videos, and that is good, and I realise you are in your teens and not close to any YMAA school, but if you are wanting to do justice to what you are training (and to me it sounds like you are) you are really going to need feedback from an instructor at some point. I think Xavier's idea about the youtube video is awesome..plus, look at it yourself. That is frequently recommended in our classroom, to video oneself doing a sequence and watch it..often we find we are doing things we know are not right, but were unaware they were happening until we actually 'caught' ourselves in the act. Corrections are very important. When I was learning LBQ I had a several mistakes I had been practicising over and over again at home, and it felt quite comfortable to me, but it was not correct. Fortunately I had time to fix it before my test. Perhaps this is something you may wish to have as a goal, to someday test your material with Master Yang or at a school, the way Xavier describes. To achieve your first stripe you would need to pass the following material:

Lian Bu Quan

Shang Xia Zhi (Up Down Limbs)

5 Chin Na:
Small Wrap Hand
Roast Peking Duck
Feudal Lord Invites to Dinner
Upper Hooking Hand
Push the Boat Following the Stream (if you want the Chinese I can look them up for you)

5 Fighting Forms:

Single Lower Cover Hand
Double Lower Cover Hand
Left & Right Intercepting Hand
Left, Right and Low Intercepting Hand
Upper Neutralising Hand (again I have the Chinese terms if you need them)

The last three you need a partner to test, but you could work on the material on your own, although I admit it's awkward. Also you should have the following stances:

Horse (ma bu)
Mountain Climbing (deng shan bu)
Four-Six (si liu bu)
Tame the Tiger (fu hu bu)
Golden Rooster (jin ji du li)
False or Tricky (xuan ji bu)

Gong Li Quan is a second period sequence, we usually do not work on this until we have passed the material listed above. I really can't stress enough about getting your forms checked some day, and to reassure you that you will be corrected. It sounds like you are working hard, that's brilliant, enjoy your training!

[Yue]

Yes, I'm using the green long fist book. I think I will post a video on youtube if I can figure out how to get my camera to synchronize with my computer without the whole thing shutting down. I've seen those chin na you mentioned in the analysis of shaolin chin na book, and I have the stances down (I think). I'll see if I can do the fighting forms on my own. Admittedly, I've never tried any of them because I don't have any peers who practice Long Fist.

[DOM]

There is a lot you can learn from that book that can improve your skills and training exspecialy if you have some experience . The sequences are much harder to figure out but there are video of all the forms available . The basics are were it is at anyway and these can easily be learned from this book if you have half a brain . Again there is a DVD that goes in to great detail on the proper execution of teqnik . Experience in some form of martial art is a plus but not necessarily needed . I would suggest that in conjunction with the training material you seek out a school/instructor some were . Even if you can only attend once a week or every other week . If you do this , study the training material and practice every day in between , you can and will make great strides and attain an understanding of what kung fu meens .

[Dvivid]

This is the DVD mentioned, with a link for your convenience. There's a preview video on the page (check out a young Alex Kiesel and his mustache, Andover school director, getting chin-na'ed by 35-year-old Master Yang -- a very young Ramel Rones -- and the legendary George Dominguez):



http://www.ymaa.com/publishing/dvd/kungfu_DVD/shaolin_longfist_kungfu_DVD1

[yeniseri]

Just practicing 350 times is good, but what exactly are you practicing?
Hopefully there is an awareness of posture, function, quality, balance and some type of usage fundamentals like jibengong or shenfa!

[DOM]

it is not the exacted amount that matters, there is no secrete number that when reached means mastery . It's not meant to be that literal . The meaning is much more simple and profound . Spend some time pondering that proverb and keep practicing !