Real Combat Situations and Qin Na

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Real Combat Situations and Qin Na

Postby silverfox » Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:53 pm

Hello everyone,

Master Yang has said that to get good at using Qin Na in real combat, that the practioneer should focus on a few techniques that they feel comfortable with and master them. I am studying for my 3rd Shaolin stripe and have compiled a list of 20 chosen Qin Na for my test with Master Yang.

I feel that these 20 are more efficient for me since I have been studying Wing Tsun since 1996. My chosen Qin Na are all off palms or punches, which means I am using my opponents bridge as opposed to them grabbing my wrist, or shirt, etc.. I am more comfortable with this idea for real combat situations.

I was curious from other YMAA practioneers, what Qin Na did you prefer to use when you tested chosen Qin Na and why?

YMAA practioneers, If you haven't tested chosen Qin Na yet, what Qin Na do you like and why?

Non-YMAA people, what types of joint locks do you like for real world combat and why?

Please stay on topic,

Thanks for your input,

Scott
"The greatest goal of life is to cultivate your own human nature
and learn how to harmonize with nature and others around you"

GLMC

Scott Tarbell
Director of YMAA Amesbury
www.ymaakungfu.com
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Postby darth_freak » Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:37 pm

I also like off punches or grabing and moving. As if the opponents grabs you but doesn't stay still as in the first 2 stripes. I mean he grabs and comes to attack. Then it gets interesting.
But I wonder if it's still applicable because we get used to certain kind of attacks. I think we should pick up some random people and ask them to attack you in some ways they would attack and then see if your qinna are effective.
"Turn your butt!"
Master Yang.

Xavier
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Postby Inga » Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:18 pm

I used to find it curious that some of the first stripe chin na began from a handshake. Later I realised they are simply a teaching aide to make a static drill out of a moving technique. I have taken four chin na seminars with Master Yang (and I will need some more before I really start to get the hang of it, especially the names) but some basic principles are sinking in. I think, Xavier, to expand on what you were saying, the type of attack eventually does not matter, if it is a strike or a grab the chin na will flow from the motion of the attack, the momentum used to the defender's advantage. I have had Chris Fazzio work with me, and start from simple coiling, or "random" grabs or punches and have him encourage me to just sense where the opening is and apply the chin na I know, not think, just act. The chin na are so adaptable, it seems to me there cannot be any attack they could not cope with, given an unhesitant reaction and correct application. I agree one should practice the "random" factor as much as possible, but I would only want to do this will fellow students who knew about chin na.
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Postby silverfox » Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:30 pm

I find that sometimes in class when we do reaction Qin Na that if I don't get you with the first lock I can flow into another lock, which my old small circle jiujitsu teacher used to call transitional flow. Being able to fluidly adapt to a new stimulus without too much thought involved, which of course is the fun part.

I may be mistaken, but isn't that what Master Yang has going with the counter - attack Qin Na for 4th stripe. Is it to be able to flow?

Thanks,

Scott
"The greatest goal of life is to cultivate your own human nature
and learn how to harmonize with nature and others around you"

GLMC

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Director of YMAA Amesbury
www.ymaakungfu.com
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Postby darth_freak » Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:11 am

yep. you must follow the move and apply another qinna.

So you guys do "reaction qinna"? is that in qinna classes or in kung fu classes? I'll think about that anyway!
"Turn your butt!"
Master Yang.

Xavier
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Postby Inga » Thu Feb 15, 2007 11:29 am

Xavier: Oh, in class, in seminar, after class, in the corridor... :) I usually do these drills with the more advanced students who are patient with me and feed my kung fu addiction. I should practice more with my peers, I am lucky there are two other students at exactly the same place as I am, and I have others I could work with too. You can do this as well, with a training partner, just think of it as a type of fighting form, give and take, back and forth. Or do it in sets if you prefer. For me, it is not only practice for chin na, it is an exercise in letting go, trying to clear my mind and not bloody think.

Scott: Ah, but it's all fun is it not..I can't remember many times you did not get me on the first lock. I would agree the fourth period chin na are probably about demonstrating a deeper understanding of the technique by displaying gained intuition, and unhesitant command of applications. This leads naturally to the ability to flip the advantage mid flow and take control. Mr. Fazzio does that to me ALL the time. It's a good sneak preview for me. Irritating though.
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Postby DOM » Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:12 pm

The easiest and most effective chinna are those after you have been grabbed.There is very few who will ever have the ability and skill to apply a china in a real fight or even when sparring wile some one is striking them.
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Postby silverfox » Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:17 pm

Hi DOM,

From my experiences I feel that the best way of applying Qin Na was when I found myself in the position, not when I was trying to look for it. Exchanging strikes and a palm lands in your hand. White crane nods it's head suddenly drops the guy who wasn't expecting it.

Qin Na is always more effective when it it is unexpected. These techniques become 2nd nature from training them in live formats like pan shou, chi sau, or even push hands. After a while one doesn't have to search for the lock it just happens.

I agree that if you try to just apply a lock it is very difficult and only those with great skill from solid training could pull that off. I also think that the grab is easier to lock than the strike, but I feel that is the difference between defensive and offensive Qin Na.

Thanks for your reply,

Scott
"The greatest goal of life is to cultivate your own human nature
and learn how to harmonize with nature and others around you"

GLMC

Scott Tarbell
Director of YMAA Amesbury
www.ymaakungfu.com
silverfox
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Postby N0M4D » Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:45 am

Hi, everyone

Scott, your observation – that the 4th level counter QinNa is all about flowing – is spot on. Basically, once you find yourself in the imminence of being in a lock, you should move in a way that will “dissolve” your opponent’s technique and allow you to flow into a new lock. Accomplishing this is a question of feeling and, especially at first, analyzing QinNa techniques to find ways out and transitions.

On the subject of “favorites”, I personally tend to train pretty much everything. While I agree that techniques starting from striking are in general more readily transferred into sparring, don’t underestimate the value of those in which you are grabbed (or grab!) first. During sparring it’s not uncommon at all for someone to grab you and try to control your limbs to avoid taking a beating: in these situations, Bow To Show Courtesy is sooo easy to use.

DOM, applying QinNa during sparring (and this was partly implied in the previous paragraph) is not that difficult. But like Scott said, it’s definitely more a question of finding yourself in a situation where you can use it rather than actively looking for it. Again, it’s a question of feeling and having a good set of techniques you’re comfortable in.

I liked the idea of QinNa reaction... might start using it here in Portugal :P
Ricardo Carvalhosa
Almada, PORTUGAL

"I don't know Karate, but I know Ca-razy, and I'm not afraid to use it." - Roy O'Bannon, Shanghai Noon :mrgreen:
(thanks for the head's up, John :wink:)
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