Rare mantis/long fist form -- Si Lu Beng Da

[Dave C.]

There's an interesting form called si lu beng da. I wonder if it's part of Dr. Yang's long fist curriculum?

Here is Han Qing-tan doing an early verison of the form:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkWY4joNlUk

One reason this form is interesting is that it was originally a praying mantis form. But Han Qing-tan reworked it into a long fist form by adding long fist hand movements and postures. He did this because he was famous for his kicks, but he didn't have a form that highlighted those kicks. Si lu beng da as taught by mantis people has lots of great kicks so Han reworked it.

HERE is a nice version of what it wound up as.

Thing is, he was still unhappy with the form so he eventually created his own kicking form: yanqing tui. This is, of course, completelt long fist in character because Han built it from scratch.

Here's a clip of my shixiong (elder brother) doing the form:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85tdZYkMQWI

Is yanqingtui part of Dr. Yang's curriculum as well?

[darth_freak]

nop, we haven't got that form. Too bad because it would be so great for kicks. That form is rather great, it makes me feel like wanting to learn it.

Though we have some small forms with series of kicks but I've seen them once or twice only.


Si Lu Ben Zha (Four Ways of Running and Smashing) is in our curriculum. But it's the last long fist form. So no more than maybe 8 people know it from Master Yang.



(those videos on youtube from that stevenjr518 are intersting for us long fist practioner of Master Han lineage!)
(and you guyz should definitly check these videos (there's some long fist):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5XMIQrvinM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFle3ms8TbM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imOPzsc95LA

Some old footage from 1964! the level there used to be is impressive compared to what we can see today.)

[Dave C.]

Si Lu Ben Zha (Four Ways of Running and Smashing) is in our curriculum. But it's the last long fist form. So no more than maybe 8 people know it from Master Yang.

Excellent! Okay, Si lu beng da is the mantis form that Han Qing-tan changed into si lu beng zha. After he changed the form, he changed the name to differentiate it.

The version that your system has should look something like this possibly.

The form at the bottom of my first post is yanqingtui and some lines from Han may not have it. I think it looks great, but some practicioners here don't like it because they like si lu beng da or si lu beng zha better. Most peopel are of the opinion that you need one or the other, but usually not both.

I understand why most people don't get these forms. They are fairly long and difficult. I don't find them easy either. But doing these at a good pace with good form can really build your gongfu.

[darth_freak]

How does one learn the forms in your system?

because in the YMAA system, you may have noticed, we've got a ranking system with stripes sewn on the leg of the pants. And Si Lu Ben Zha is form for the stripe making you YMAA instructor. So we can't pick up what forms we want to learn, we have to practice for the program required in order to pass a stripe then we've got a new program.

here is the stripe program: http://school.ymaa.com/training/ymaapro ... haolin.php
click on the stripes to see the program.

But yangintui is really a kicking form (both senses ) and though si lu ben zha got more kicks than some other long fist forms, there may be not enough kicks...


by any chance, you haven't got a video of the form when it was still Mantis, have you?

[Dave C.]

Ummm...well...my teacher is pretty laid back and I've been doing CMA for a fairly long time. So he pretty much let's me pick what I want to work on. I'm also only doing long fist with him and I take private lessons only so my progress is much faster than most. I feel a little about this because I know not everyone has this opportunity.

But doing it the YMAA way seems good too. Everything is integrated together into one, long system. Here in Taiwan, we often get things is a less....organized fashion, shall we say.

Organization is REALLY nice, and I miss it a lot. Haha. Makes it easy to progress. I have to develop my material myself outside of class, so all the pressure is on me. No map to guide me.

I don't have video of the mantis version of silu bengda, but if I choose to learn it, that will be the version that I learn. My teacher only kows the mantis veriosn, i think. I might just ask for both silu bengda and yanqingtui. May be good to have them both. If so, I'll try to post more on the differences.

[darth_freak]

I see.

I like the old system better: when it was the teacher who decided what you learn. Like "Tomorrow, you're learning saber! So get a saber!"
Because now, people train for their stripes but most of them leave behind what they have learnt...It's only "stripes, stripes, stripes!"
That's what Master Yang reproached us for that summer.

[Dave C.]

I like the old system better: when it was the teacher who decided what you learn.

The only problem with that is that some of this stuff is not of equal value. And some people were a bit upset somethimes that they had to learn stuff that didn't really have value.

Take liuhequan from Han's long fist for example. Liuhequan doesn't really have any value by itself. It's at roughly the level of erlumaifu, and doesn't have anything that the other sets don't have. And yet, it was required learning by most teachers. So it doesn't really contribute anything to your gongfu.

You'll notice that erlumaifu is the predominant set of the maifu sets ( also yilu and wulu). The reason is that yilu and wulu aren't that great. The meat is in erlu.

The same can be said for qixing dao, IMO. It's at roughly the level of bagua dao. So why learn it?

[darth_freak]

hmm... I like different forms. Each has a singular feeling even if some have a similar feeling. Though I do agree there're some I don't like (well actually only one (gongli quan) because I know only 4 longfist forms plus 12 tan tui).

[trimax]

darth_freak ,

I also share your opinion about "gong li quan" but what don't you like in the power training sequence? Too long, too hard, no jumps?

What is your favorite then? I did enjoy "Er Lu Mai Fu" more than "Yi Lu". "Er Lu" and "Xiao Hu Yan" were my favorites, but right now I really like "San Lu Pao". It is really long, acrobatic, sneaky, round, open,... enjoyable!

[trimax]

Dave C.,

The same can be said for qixing dao, IMO. It's at roughly the level of bagua dao. So why learn it?

I can't agree with you. Although Bagua Dao share similar elements with Qixing Dao, they do have differences and subtle nuances. I think it's good to learn both because each will provide multiple aspects - this of course if we have enough time to practice them both. We also have to consider that the weapons differ in size which results in differences of range usage.

[darth_freak]

to trimax,
what I don't like in gong li quan...I don't really know actually. I don't like how it feels and how it looks. And there're some moves I don't really like because I feel they can't be applied, more than some others. (I mean the block which looks like a nazi hail and the block before the deng tui that is before the liu tui)

I like Er Lu, I find it nice and cool. I think that Yi Lu is important to build up Er Lu because Yi Lu is more tiring some when I can pick between those two forms and I'm a little bit tired I do Er Lu
Xiao Hu Yan seems to be a real pain for the legs with all its fu hu bu and tun bu!
(Is the YMAA San Lu Pao like this one? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMZN7qJWVE0 I've never really seen it, only twice or thrice. But what I'd like to see is Cha Quan. Too bad that all forms aren't shown in Summer Camps )



to Dave C.,
do you know some more about yanqing tui? I'd be particularly interested in knowing more about its name and why it is named as such. (any link with yanqing dao?)




I haven't learnt Qi Xing Dao (no more than Bagua Dao obviously) but I feel that it may be nice to have a form with similar moves with another form so that you get a familiar feeling when you practice it and other feelings may come more quickly. I also feel that QXD puts up the basics and BD deepens those basics.

[trimax]

darth_freak,

Yes, our San Lu Pao is almost the same as depicted. There are a few minor differences in some moves but basically it's the same.

I also agree that QXD is more basic and that it is good to have the two forms so we can have a slightly different view on the same principles - if you have the time to work on them of course.

[19thlohan]

to Dave C.,
do you know some more about yanqing tui? I'd be particularly interested in knowing more about its name and why it is named as such. (any link with yanqing dao?)
.

Prety much any form named Yanqing is named after one of the water margin characters from the Outlaws of the Marsh.

Here is one version of the yinqing dao

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQcQARnO ... ed&search=

[Dave C.]

I also agree that QXD is more basic and that it is good to have the two forms so we can have a slightly different view on the same principles - if you have the time to work on them of course.

I agree with my teacher that bagua dao is already basic enough, no need to have two basic saber forms. Instead, he teaches bagua dao and then the yanqing dao in the link right above this post.

He feels that's it's more developmental to learn the harder form rather than spend time on a form or equal difficulty.

But if you like qixing dao, then it obvious has value to you. So it would be worth doing.

I haven't heard of different daos being used for bagu dao and qixing dao. We use liu ye dao (willowleaf) for everything. Do you guys use willowleaf for one and oxtail (niu ye) dao for other?

The yanqing connection is what has been posted as far as I know. I think it's just the names that they share.