Baat Jam Sai?

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Baat Jam Sai?

Postby yat_chum » Sat Apr 01, 2006 4:07 am

I would like to learn the Baat Jam Do in order to improve my WCK but I feel uneasy in my spirit with owning the knives, do you guys think it would be O.K. to replace the knives with sais?
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Postby yat_chum » Sat Apr 01, 2006 4:14 am

Is the butcher mindset necessary to learn the knives?
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Postby DOM » Sat Apr 01, 2006 2:45 pm

Why do you feel uneasy about owning knives.get a pair that are not sharp.I no longer practice wc but I still practice practice the knives.
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Postby Walter Wong » Mon Apr 03, 2006 8:59 am

Some of the movements in the form calls for using the weapon's edge for cutting. If you use sai, you change the meaning of doing the form that's meant to be done with the knives.

You can typically get the Butterfly Knives with blunt edge for practice as DOM suggested.

You have to keep in mind that people had to kill back then to survive. Edged weapons was a powerful way to cut down evil that preyed on the innocent. It is not necessarily in fact you shouldn't think you're developing a violent mindset when practicing archaic bladed weapons, but that you're practicing something that meant the lives and a nation's long history of fighting for survival. There are lessons and history in the weapon and its forms you are practicing. If you change the weapon for that form, you change the meaning of doing that form to begin with.
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Postby scramasax57 » Mon Apr 03, 2006 7:20 pm

why do you not feel "uneasy in your spirit" owning sai? they are just as much a killing tool as a butterfly knife. for that matter, anyone with training and even most people without training are capable of killing someone with their bare hands. you even posted in your quote of the day thread this quote: it is better to be a warrior in a garden that a gardener in a war. there is nothing inherently evil (or good either) in weapons or in martial arts training. they have no soul or intention. they are simply tools. it's what you do with them that is evil or good. if you really feel uncomfortable, use blunt ones.
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Postby yat_chum » Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:18 pm

Hi all, thankyou for sharing you thoughts

DOM I feel uneasy with owning the knives because of what they are BIG F Cough knives designed for killing people plus I have a problem with getting into the butcher mindset. I want to train with the knives because they are an excellent teachers. Bunt knives are a good idea could you recommend a good pair.

Walter excellent points.

scramasax57 I feel less uneasy with Sai because it is much easier to subdue an attacker without killing him with Sais than with a pair of Dit Ming Do "Life taking knives" as they are also known. I haven't used the quote you mentioned but I might do in the future. Thanks :D

If anyone is interested in what the WCK forum guys had to say about the matter heres a link http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php ... opic&t=261

To all, Namaste
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Postby DOM » Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:14 am

most if not all martial arts were designed for killing,hence the word martial.I do not understand what you meen by butcher mentality.If you feel you can not control the urge to try them out on some one for real.Then maybe you should not train at all.The knives are for advanced training,you need to be proficiant in all other teckniques and forms.My knives are made of brass and cost around a hundred bucks.I do not know were they came from the teacher got them.Ask those on the wing chun site they will know.Check the internet.
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Postby DOM » Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:16 am

P.S. the handles are brass the blade is steel unsharpend.
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Postby scramasax57 » Tue Apr 04, 2006 4:43 pm

you're right, you hadn't said that one yet. but you did say

The superior man, when resting in safety, does not forget that danger may come. When in a state of security he does not forget the possibility of ruin. When all is orderly, he does not forget that disorder may come. Thus his person is not endangered, and his States and all their clans are preserved.
Confucius (551 BC - 479 BC)


if you feel uncomfortable with the mindset that goes along with a certain kind of training, then don't train it. or if you do, realize that it isn't the true meaning of that training. if you trained xingyi and took away the fierce, aggressive spirit, or modified the techniques so that they controlled instead of injured, then it wouldn't be xingyi. it's the same thing with any weapon training form. be honest with yourself; martial arts are meant for fighting. they are meant to hurt, to maim, and to kill. if you feel uncomfortable with having that kind of power even if you would never use it, do yoga instead. it has great health benefits and gives you no fighting ability at all.
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Postby yat_chum » Sun Apr 09, 2006 8:57 pm

“most if not all martial arts were designed for killing, hence the word martial”
DOM

Hi all, please indulge me in a ramble,

“From the very beginning, capoeira had to struggle to survive, since all African cultural activity was repressed in the 1800. Facing a stronger opponent who controlled the power and made the laws, capoeira had to be flexible to avoid frontal confrontations, to go with the flow of things. Capoeira learned the guerrilla way of fighting when faced by a stronger more stabilised army. It learned the value of lies and deceit, of ambush, surprise and treason.

One does not block a kick in capoeira; on the contrary, one goes along with it, thus avoiding the blow and the counterattacking if possible. One does not confront a man face to face but rather pretends to be a coward, to ask of mercy - and then to hit the opponent when he lowers his guard.

Capoeira knows nothing of such words, valued in Western society, as honesty, truth and fair play when facing an enemy. Such concepts and luxuries are not available when you are a slave to a master who goes to church in the morning and at night rapes young women in the slave quarters, not even considering them to bee human beings but simply peças (literally pieces, or units with some economic value) In the capoeiristas’ world view, such concepts are to be employed only with those who have proved real friendship.”
The Little Capoeira Book

You see, I like many have got into a comfort zone but as scramasax57 reminded me

The superior man, when resting in safety, does not forget that danger may come. When in a state of security he does not forget the possibility of ruin. When all is orderly, he does not forget that disorder may come. Thus his person is not endangered, and his States and all their clans are preserved.
Confucius (551 BC - 479 BC)


or to put it another way

Blade: You better wake up. The world you live in is just a sugar-coated topping! There is another world beneath it - the real world. And if you want to survive it, you better learn to PULL THE TRIGGER!
from the film Blade

The Baat Jam Do really demonstrates clearly the true nature of Wing Chun.
There is a Wing Chun saying “dao mo seung faat” which means that the moves of the knives are not repeated.
Which is describing the lethality of the Baat Jam Do also known as dit ming do life taking knives. Mastery of the knives can bring a frightening clarity to wing chun boxing methods. Use of knives also develops what is known as the butcher mindset which describes the unrelenting cruelty to the opponent. When applied the knives intercept and cut the first available target, then move on to finish off the opponent. Body structure and footwork are very important in the use of the knives and if you have any weaknesses in these areas the using the knives soon reveals them.

To finish another quote

Only someone who has mastered violence can truly choose to be non-violent. The Taoists and Buddists who developed the eastern martial arts understood this. Ignoring the problems of violence do not make them go away.

Kit Lewis

Thanks guy for listening and for all your advice. Jo
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Postby scramasax57 » Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:41 am

a very enjoyable ramble. i really liked this quote:

Only someone who has mastered violence can truly choose to be non-violent. The Taoists and Buddists who developed the eastern martial arts understood this. Ignoring the problems of violence do not make them go away.


i'm glad you changed your mind.
aka eric hinds, 2nd stripe
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