Iron shirt & Iron sand palm training

[TenTigers]

My Sifu's Sifu does Red Sand, or Cinnabar Palm. This also called Cotton palm. He demonstrated it once by striking my teacher lightly and leaving a red imprint of his entire hand that lasted for days. From what I hear, part of the training involves celibacy for a year. That's all I know, and since I am a new student, I will not be exposed to this level for a long time. I;ll get back to you in ten years or so.

[Flip]

some other iron shirt techniques i've read about involve the following:
hanging from a chin-up bar and falling onto the ground so that part of you (chest, shoulders, abdomen, back) hit the ground.

Also, there is hitting oneself first with a wooden hammer, then with iron hammer. Northern style has similar training using wood then iron bricks.

I read these from books found on kungfulibrary.com

[Lohan]

Breakfalling and Iron Bone (physiological) and related Chi Gong are 3 seperate persuits. I personally believe that the physical training of iron palm / iron bone and the chi gong training are related and synergize with one another to produce the end result.

So far as breakfalling goes, this is not related to iron shirt. I would not recommend falling from a chinup bar onto your back to train in iron shirt. Dancers, gymnasts and cheerleaders do breakfalls all the time, do they have iron shirt? Iron shirt practitioners don't absolutely know how to breakfall properly either. I'm going to have to say that your book is a good example of the proliferation of bad information that is plaguing the chinese martial arts these days. I would advise caution when dealing with ANY author of the more esoteric arts. Find a teacher who can demonstrate his skill, that is the only way really.

[Savate]

I am only familiar with three types of such training: Iron Vest (Internal) and Stone Warrior (External), and Internal Iron Palm. Iron Shirt must be different from Iron Vest as Iron Vest does not require contact, only chi gong exercises. The Iron Vest I saw used 21 postures and exercises done for 36 reps. Between each rep you had a standing medication where you held your arms out to your sides for three minutes. The entire program took five years to complete, and two kinds herbal tablets were taken. The first 90 days, you took a semen pill and your had to refrain from sex. After that 90 day period, you did not have to refrain from sex but you had to take a breath bone tendon herb pill each day before training. You could not consume and alcohol, except maybe a glass of wine for dinner.

The Stone Warrior was 20 sets of 3 exercises each of dynamic tension done for 36 reps.

The Iron Vest was suppose to create a rock hard solarplex (misspelled) after the first 90 days and add a circle of hardness from that point on as you trained. The Iron Vest did not produce an increase in striking power.

The Stone Warrior produced a hard body, but not as rock hard as the Iron Vest, but an increase in striking was a result of the hard training.

Internal Iron Palm is like the Iron Palm taught on wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Palm

[jellybean]

Iron Shirt and Iron Palm are totaly two different things.
Yes both from Shao ling.

Iron Shirt under the system of a chi gon system called "Ein Chi Gong" (Ein mean Hard) It's really a method to put both physical and mental(Chi) together, to protect the body. It's not just through beating and sudden tightness of the body. Many has to apply medicine, meditation, and even the food you eat. One of the ways that people train Ein Chi Gong is by putting hug rock on their chest, while lying on teh ground and trying to bounce the rock off the body.

The Iron Vest does "not" protect the little birdy!
That requires another way of training which I don't know

Iron Palm is real nerve system distruction. It trains the muscle of the palm and the bones. Normaly people who've reached high level in this art has arms and legs just as iron like as their palm. It's quit painful and takes quite some time to even see alittle reward. I've known a few guys who does this stuff. By using iron sand with salt and vinegar, constaint stabbing your hand down ward with nails entering first then the whole forearm into the burning/baked sands in bucket. Your hands has to bleed, skin comes off and teh flesh showing. Then you pour alcohol all over it, then medicine. Then you get a drink and it's back to sand stab. You have to change sand and etc. everytime since you don't want bacteria to grow in there. Soon, you're nerve gets calciumlized you have more bones than meat on your hand, then you know you've pretty much got it down. Wont see much result after 1 year since, healing takes about half the time.

[TenTigers]

jellybean, what drugs are you on? Iron palm is based on Wolf's Law, which states that continuous and gradual stress placed upon a bone will increase its density. This is the same reason thatthey prescribe weight bearing resistance exercise to women after 40 to counter the onset of osteoporosis. This is also why weight lifters develop greater bone density as well as sprinters. Iron palm is a gradual process consisting of striking harder and harder surfaces as you develop along the program. As the hand is able to strike harder, it also is able to withstand greater punishment. But this is a gradual process. The bone and tissue get stronger, but bone cannot replace tissue. Of course, this does not mean that by incorrect training, you will develop calcification, and arthritus, thus making the hand incapable of holding a pen,as well as severe nerve damage. Your method is an excellent way to permanantly damage and disfigure your hand, and is NOT the traditional Iron Palm method. I have seen masters of iron palm, and their hands are NOT disfigured. They are somewhat heavier and thicker, but the skin is still soft, and they have full mobility. Great legendary iron palm masters such as Ku Yu Cheong did NOT train this method.
Where did you ever get this information? It sounds like it came from bad Kung-Fu movies.

[gmc]

TenTigers, thanks for clarifying the REAL iron palm training. I got a headache from the last iron palm thread, constantly explaining that real iron palm training is gradual and requires the ability to sense and control many internal factors, e.g., six harmonies.

[scramasax57]

i realize that many of jellybean's statements were farfetched, and i for one encourage critical thinking, but i also think it best to refrain from childish insults. to my knowledge (i may be wrong) none of you train at YMAA, but either way this forum is for debate and sharing of information. if something someone says upsets you, i would urge you to wait a bit before replying to make sure that you don't say something in the heat of the moment that will embarass you later.

jellybean, i'd like to know where you got this information. it seems to go against what most people say, and to be honest it doesn't make much sense.

[jellybean]

No need to rage arguments If it's possible to avoid
With different amount of respect; I don’t see which part of my statement is different from, TenTighers’.
Bone density is created from calcification. During the process of unnatural calcification “is” damaging. Iron palm is unnatural calcification. Which means something other than just bones itself is calcified. The sand itself contains lead. Lead poisons the nerves in the flesh. The hand observes much faster when it’s sweating.
I did not say after the process, the hands would be disfigured. The hand is softer because new skin is grown.

Have you guys seen any 18th century Maui Tai guys. Their bones are equally dense and thick like iron palms. In their old days, they were having trouble function their hands properly. Why? Because the process is unnatural. And from which Kung Fu movie did you see my method of Iron palm

And to Gmc, maybe you’ve read it wrong. I didn’t say anything about internal with Iron palm, only Iron shirt that requires some sort of internal and external establishment. But then again, training such as Iron palm does require certain amount of mental control; knowing when to let the hand heal.

Maybe the way I describe it sound more gory than it suppose to be, but at the beginning of the training is pretty harsh.

If I give you my source of information, will that make you trust my words more? I can always give you a false name. I can always use some unknown monk's name as a back up. I don't have to. Ones I speak my information, their are my to be held respondsible. Scramasax57, if you're truely are interested. I'll say more. But I wish to avoid all aggruments. I'm only here to tell my part and learn with same respect.

No I do not train at YMAA. It’ll be an honor to visit you guys some day.

[scramasax57]

i really am interested. i have never heard of iron palm being trained this way, and i'd love the opportunity to check out who is actually training this. let me assure you that while i retain the right to form my own opinions and express them, i will never dismiss something out of hand or make assumptions. no one knows everything.

[dc]

im guessing if you stop iron palm, the osteoclasts take over and the bone density starts to decrease. i dunno, maybe if you take extra calcium you can counteract this? just don't take too much, it's bad for the heart!

[jellybean]

For scramasax57 ShaoLin's origin; DaMowe's original Iron Palm training.

[LNP20]

http://www.wle.com//products/vsl37c.html

im interested if anyone has tried doing Iron Palm with this Wing Lam`s
video,and is it as good as it claims?

[darth_freak]

I think you'd need more than 2 small bottles of the liquid sold with. It's supposed to be a 10 or 12 steps program and takes at least 3 years. But before risking it, ask yourself why you want to train that?!

[LNP20]

I think you'd need more than 2 small bottles of the liquid sold with. It's supposed to be a 10 or 12 steps program and takes at least 3 years. But before risking it, ask yourself why you want to train that?!

well why do people do the most of the things they are doing? from my
opinion,i consider it to be a self-fulfillment,and if I start with something,im
ready to devotate myself to it.and id be very happy if I could find myself
a teacher,but here where im from,europe croatia,there just arent any around.
so, learning it like this or in similiar method is my only way.

and when talking about 10-12 steps program that takes at least 3 years,
you mean this video its like this , or thats the general method of learning
iron palm? also, if someone knows some other approven videos that
deal with the same thematics,id be glad to hear it .

[darth_freak]

I was talking about the general method. But I don't think you really can have a complete learning with a video. For that thing you need to be taught, not to learn.

If you're looking for self-fulfillment, I'd recommend you Master Yang's embryonic breathing book. It's all about spiritual enlightenment. 'Can't be more self-fulfilling!

[DOM]

ya,I have been training it for about 8 months or so on and off.A good friend of mine has been at it for over a year.Just be prepaired to dedicate your self to training one to three sessions a day every day for weeks months and years.It is real athentic kung fu.If you only trained this I truly beleave you can reach a high level of kung fu.You can not get away with only doing it two or three times a week like you can with forms or kung fu classes.It takes much more dedication then that.You have to be willing and have a life style that allowes you to train a minimum of once a day every day for years.After 8 moths I have just begun hitting gravel.My life style makes it exstremly diffucult to advance past the first stage but I am still at it.Get the book and dvd you will need both of them.The book will go into great detail,about the history,training and misconceptions of Iron palm.The video,is great shows how to set up,warm up,train,massage and apply jow to hands.It also shows proper and improper training methods.also goes in to the history and brick breaking to test your teckniques.Wing lam himself showes how to train along with some top students.Oh ya buy a case of his jow you will need it.his is good I do know were to get other jow that I feel is better.You can make your own but it takes a lot of time and money.It is much easier buying premade jow.But if you injoy doing it have at.But good luck finding a big enough jar.I can direct you to a good place to get jow to make and premade jow,and were to get some big jars to brew it,if you want.Good luck and happy training.By the way it is very self fulfilling

[LNP20]

thank you guys very much,especially DOM,for very inspiring post.
what interests me more after reading it, do you train one or both palms,
how much does one typical session last,at which rate you spend his jow
if you train regulary and whats the difference between Tiger iron palm
and the Secret iron palm that was posted in the upside link,and which
one of them its better to dedicate your time to? And for making my own
jow is a bit out of my ambitions for now,but would certainly love to hear
where to get that other premade jow that you feel is better than one of
Wing Lam`s.

thnx in advance for info

[DOM]

both palms are trained at the same time.alternating hands using palm back of hand willow palm(edge of hand) and tiger claw jab,for about 20 minute sessions up to 3 times a day morning noon and night.jow is applied about 1/3 of the training time.If you are realy interested in training Iron palm get his material and study it you will not be dissapointed.He also is a linage holder of tiger Iron palm and teaches it for advanced iron palm training.The book goes into the training but I beleave there is a seperate dvd for this.Tiger iron palm also uses a special tilting table and special bag that is designed to slide when struck.As for the jow his is pretty good so do not be worried about using it.There is quit a few places to get the herbs and premade jow if you do a little research.But if you would like to know were I get mine e-mail me.