black belt history

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black belt history

Postby DOM » Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:28 am

It is funny how alot of kunfu peaple mock the term black belt and what it stands for after finding out it true origian.I have been reading Adam Shues book and came across this subject belt levels for kungfu. .I was told a simular story that I always tell my self.Bet never realized it came from China and the martial art Shuaijiao.He says shuaijiao maches were held in a sand pit where the the combanation of sweat and dirt stains turned the belt and uniform black.The belt was never washed so{just like we were told never to do in karate}Threw prolonged us the white belt turnes black.The condition and color of the opponents belt determend his leval of skill.He go's on to say that he would like to see kung fu develop a simular ranking system like judo and karate.
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Postby Walter Wong » Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:38 am

I heard about the white belt being unwashed and soiled through hard practice coming from Karate. Which made sense of how one gets to black belt.

I had no idea it was from Shuai Chiao. I read the same book but I must have overlooked that part or just forgotten. But that is interesting. I guess the white belt/black belt idea once again comes from Chinese.

I have no problem with this idea of white belt unwashed and being soiled through practice/sparring sessions which would be more of a true external expression of an individual's rank or skill level.
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Postby DOM » Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:50 am

ya who realy knows,I beleave it came from china because the Japanies have a tendacy to say they developed or created every thing.They do not like to admit anthing about there culture came from China.I realy like the ranking system in judo and karate.I feel when it is applyed properly,The sempai kohai realation ship is of great benifit to all who practice.Dr.Yang has created a simular ranking system.The Differance is there is 20 ranks in karate mudansha and yudansha.Ten under black belt ranks and 10 ranks of black belt.Shodan first degrea black belt literaly meens you have reached the elementary level.You have just begun.The problem is every one feels this is the ultamate goal.When it is just the begining.The other differance is Dr.Yangs is soley based on material learned not time served.Karate goes by knowlage but also the time and effert you have put in,and what you have given back.In the karate system you can never jump ahead of your seniors no matter how much more you mite know or how much better you mite perform.Karate also has differant titles for teaching.Except they are very rarly used.Which in turn makes for the problem we have today.The many who should not teach or own a school. You can have a higher teaching title then someone who is your senior.When this system of teaching titles is used I feel it is much more fair.Not every one can teach,no matter how much they know or how well they can perform.Some one's tecknical skills can be lower then others but be able to teach them better then someone who's performance is much better.I have seen those that were exstremly talented but could not teach any one anything.I am not a sports fan or even reamember this guys name but this is a good example of this.I seen a show some time ago were the the best kicking coach in the N.F.L is paralized from the neck down,and has been from birth.But he hung around football players all his life watching and studing how they kicked.He is know the most sought after kicking coach in the N.F.L. or was anyway.Do not get me wrong I do not feel this should ever be the case in kungfu or any other martial art.One has to feel pain and know the effort that it takes to fully understand.But not every one is gifted and some start much later in life not allowing them to perform or reach the same physical and tecknical level as some others.But by now meens dose this meen they will not make an excellent teacher.But I do beleave that besides having the knowlage and understanding of how to perform correctly.They must go threw the blood and sweat of training.
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Postby kame » Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:27 pm

i like walter's explaination...
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Postby mike waits » Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:28 am

This is very true that you should never wash your sash, but the ranking system is not really that traditional. The main purpose for a sash is to wrap up your intestines so when you are emitting power <fa jing> you do not damage your intertnal body. As for DOM, you said, "The other differance is Dr.Yangs is soley based on material learned not time served." In Gong Fu practice is what shines, only through dillagent efforts will you succeed. Some people just naturally pick things up quicker, should that hold your training back. No of course not. Dr. Yang can push with you for 10 sec. and know exactly where you stand in your training, I think he has a very good judgement of time served. As for passing your higher ranks, I think a teacher should want his students to surpass his level. That is what makes a great teacher!
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Postby DOM » Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:36 pm

I did not meen there was any thing negitive about his ranking system.I was just discussing the simularits and differances.Infact it is very much like karate or judo.I think his system works great.Obviously if you reach the higher levels you had to put much time and effort in,same as in karate and judo.What I ment was in the traditional japanes ranking system you can not go ahead in seniority because you now more or are more talented then you seniors.There is a strick pecking order that starts from the day someone starts training.They can not be passed in senority or rank by someone who trains more or has more talent.I my self have some issues about this but this is the way it is.This is not only the way their matrtial arts work,but their intire culture.I honestly do not know if this is the case it is in Ymaa or not.It really dose not matter one way or another.It is his system and he should run it his way.Infact I feel it's great he has done so.Most traditionl kunfu schools do not have one.And like I said I like the idea of a ranking system.I only brought this subject up because I found it interesting to here that the idea of a black belt and what it meens came from china and chines martial arts.I like Walter was told it came from karate.I thought I would mention it because I have heard many peaple who practice kung fu put down karate and the idea of a black belt.Right here on this forum,so I figured I would share what I have learned.You see I have studied many differant martial arts from differant cultures so I tend to have more of a open mind to other styles then most other peaple.I do not feel one style is better than another.It all depends on how it's being tought, practiced and what level someone is at. It was not my intention to say anything negitive,only to inform those who mite be more closed minded.Like I once was,To keep an empty cup and be more open minded.
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Postby Walter Wong » Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:54 pm

From what I understand of the Canadian Iaido Association, in their Iaido, seniority is always the person that has been training Iaido longer with full commitment over the person that started after. Even if the person who started after has surpassed their senior in rank, that person still remains junior even with higher rank. And there's no physical cloth worn to show rank but just with a certificate for passing dan or rank test.

In the Nami Ryu Aiki Heiho system, an off shoot of Yanagi Ryu, there is no ranking system. The only seniors are just instructors. But instructor or not, everyone in that system is treated equally cause they treat it as if they were training for battlefield and in the battlefield, the ability to fight and trust to rely on each other for back up was more important than rank. So ranking system is dismissed by them.

I am involved with training both Iaido connected to the Canadian Iaido Association and Nami Ryu Aiki Heiho system outside of YMAA. Yeah, just more to add onto my overflowing plate of Kung Fu studies.

The Iaido of the Candian Iaido Association is Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu style. Focus is only on the Japanese sword.

Nami Ryu Aiki Heiho is a complete Samurai Art system with sword - Kenjutsu and Iaijutsu, barehand combat - Aikijujutsu which includes various strikes, kicks, takedowns and locks, and various other Samurai weapons like Naginata (Japanese equivalent to Chinese Kwan Dao), Spear and various weapons. The Samurai Arts are very complete in every aspect of combat like the Chinese systems. In fact I find the Samurai Arts are just as deep and as powerful as the Chinese systems. But like we are talking about, I wouldn't be surprised if the Samurai combative arts came from Chinese as well.

In regards to YMAA ranking system, awhile back I was talking with Master Yang bout his training days, he said there was no physical rank showing either. The seniority goes in order of who's been there longest. With Master Yang's Long Fist training, Grandmaster Li didn't give rank either but it was recognized that whoever is there longer has more seniority over someone that joined after. In Long Fist, Master Yang said you just learn the next form after you have learned the current form you are working is done at least 300 times. At the 300 mark, you learn the next form. Master Yang created the stripe ranking system for YMAA to organize students progress. I can also see it as an easier way for Master Yang and any YMAA student to see what YMAA material you know just by looking at your stripes.
Last edited by Walter Wong on Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby DOM » Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:16 pm

exactly my point.It is a sempai kohai relationship.With or with out ranks and colored belts.The actual belt system is fairly new.More to help the instuctor, incourage the students and permote fair play in competition.In the system I studied all the black belts looked the same(no stripes for multable degreas}and you never got a knew one.There was no visable distinction of who was at what rank after black belt but you better know were you belonged.
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Postby Jinteh » Tue Feb 28, 2006 12:58 pm

let me see if i can explain the version of the belt ranking system that seems to be pretty practical. To begin with a little about myself,,Ive been practicing Karate,, since the 60's and most of that time over sea's. This by far makes me an expert or master of my arts,,but ive been around and seen a lot,, so take what you want from this.
Master Kano Jigoro the found of Judo started using the belt system, to separate his begining, middle range and expert students for compitition. Before Dr Kano there was no belt system in Japan or Okinawa, in the martial arts.
He got this Idea (I understand) from watching swimming matches in japan,,that used a colored code for their swimmners,,the youngsters (beginners) middle students and advnaced students...Im not sure what colours they used..but Dr Kano decided on the White , Brown, Black,,
using the old Confucian, Zen, Tao ideas combined,,,, white (empty) brown a little more knowledge and Black being very knowledgable of the techniques.
This then was adopted by Funakoshi..and it began to be used in Okinawa after the war. As it was told to me.
On the practical side of not washing the belt,,back in those days after WWII no one had a awashing machine,,and and the Uniform (Gi) was very hard to wash,,,I remember back in the 60's training in Okinawa, (still washing machines were very uncommon) and the aroma of your opponent could win a sparring match :-)) ).. because they would only wash them once a week,,Wives had a hard enough time keeping up with washing family clothes that they had to wear,, the karate Gi,,was an honored thing,,but took a back seat to clothes that u had to wear in making a living. The belt was even harder to wash,,as it was much thicker and difficult to wash,,so they just did not wash it..and yes it would turn brown,,,,i have my original white belt,,and it is actually black in spots.. When My Sensei gave me the belt,,he told me,,that when the belt started turning black,,i would be on my way,,,well im 62,and it is turning black,,so i guess im on my way.
I remember many times training in Okinawa,,and visitors would come in to train with us, and would be wearing white belts,,that were kind of worn and raggedy,,out of respect to the Sensei at that Dojo they would wear a white belt,,but u knew they were far from being white belts.
Sometimes i wish it would go back to the days of
White, Brown , Black,,as it was when i started,, so many today lose the site of what the belt is about,,moreso,,they lose site of what the martial arts are about,,letting the rank cloud their ego..
You see so many with 10 stripes..stripes on both sides,,gold stripes , red stripes..standning around at tourneys, or siminars with their hands tucked in the belts.. watching???? oh well,,may be theve surpassed the reason to train.. sorry for the long post,,and hope u could get through it.
I am a 62 year old male. Ive been practicing karate since the 60's.. Started my Tai Ji Quan in the mid 90's in Yang style,,have done some Chen,,and recently started training in Wu style..So much to learn,,so little time :-)
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correction to my last post

Postby Jinteh » Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:00 pm

in my last post,,it sort of reads,,ive been practicing over seas,, since the 60s,,and this by far makes me an expert....NO NO NO,,sorry my mind races ahead of my fingers,,,,this by far makes me no expert,,or master..far from it.
I am a 62 year old male. Ive been practicing karate since the 60's.. Started my Tai Ji Quan in the mid 90's in Yang style,,have done some Chen,,and recently started training in Wu style..So much to learn,,so little time :-)
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Postby DOM » Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:58 pm

there was no need for there retraction.Your intire post was void of ego.I never even noticed it intill you retracted you statment.Very interesting to here it was came from swimming.I heard about judo but never swimming.What styles have you trained?
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Postby shuharicrane » Tue May 09, 2006 11:37 pm

I have a slightly different experience with regards to rank in Japanese/Okinawan martial tradition. This is by no means the be all end all, but it is the way in which my Sensei teaches, his Sensei teaches, and his Sensei's Sensei taught. Please take this only on an informational basis and not as criticism.

The manner in which the Sempai/Kohai relationship as has been discussed seems grossly simplified and not characteristic of my exposure to that institution. It is probably the fault of modern interpretation of it in many "traditional" Japanese/Okinawan dojo. The term "McDojo" comes to mind. So keep in mind that I am aware that there are dojo and systems that emphasize quantity (time served) over quality (technical skill), but in my experience the serious student always gravitates to quality. The ego that necessitates "time served" over "skills earned" always backfires on the instructor, and soon the students will become disinterested in the instruction altogether. As far as those students that gravitate to the so-called "time served" dojo. Well, they can have their ego, I don't need to care what they do because I know that I am training for quality.

Sempai means, roughly, "big/elder sibling." This refers to the older or more experienced individual in the relationship.

Kohai means, roughly, "little/younger sibling" and refers to the younger or less experienced individual in the relationship.


"experience" in these definitions includes both, time served and skills earned, but the emphasis is placed on skill first, then time served. A deeper understanding of Sempai/Kohai might generated a hierachy in this manner.
1. Rank/skills earned from training
2. Age of individual
3. Time served training*

*this becomes important to distinguish the Sempai from Kohai when the rank/skill level as well as age are the same.

An example: my brother and I started training on the same day, nearly 15 years ago, so we have the same number of years under our belts (excuse the pun). Lets assume I am younger than my brother. In addition, we have attained the same rank. Therefore, the relationship that my brother and I share is as follows; he is my Sempai, and I am his Kohai. If I were to be promoted beyond my brother, the relationship would change, I would become the Sempai and he the Kohai.

In addition, it IS possible to be promoted to Shodan (or above) after someone (in the same system) and still be considered their Sempai.

For example, there is a Shodan that I know, who was promoted, by my Sensei, to Shodan about five years ago. They began training another art and not showing up as often to our classes. Since then Sensei has promoted other Shodans and one of them to Nidan. If the first Shodan were to begin training full time again, he would have trained with Sensei for a greater total number of years, but the Nidan would be his Sempai based on experience.

I guess what I am saying is that it is that the Sempai/Kohai relationship is not as dependent on the number of years trained as it has been made out to. It is actually primarily based on experience and age. Like the relationship of Yin and Yang where something is only considered Yin in realtionship to something else (or vice versa).

I do not doubt that there are other interpretations of the Sempai/Kohai relationship. However, these have been my experiences with it and the understanding of it taught by my Sensei.

Thank you
Nate
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