To Wing Chun or not to Wing Chun...

Discuss shaolin longfist, white crane or other styles. Theory, practice and applications. Please stay on topic.

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Postby BaguaMonk » Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:37 pm

Very good post blarg. WC is definitely a great, and even practical art. But I just see way too many modern schools emphasize the "combat aspects" and in their sparring, all I see is guys chain punching and occasionally throwing kicks. I have seen one too many experienced WC friends getting taken down by a shoot. And I keep hearing the argument "my deadly vital point hits and eye jabbing will stop all wrestlers and those bigger than me!" Its just not that easy nor that simple. Most fighters, will not stay still and chi sau with you either once they make contact with your hands.I'm sure this is a given and quite obvious, but chi sau should definitely not replace sparring. I have also seen very few schools, students, and sometimes teachers who have good power generation from legs/waist.

The best ones IMO are the ones who can be spontaenous and explosive in their movements, some look way too robotic when doing wing chung it seems .Thats why I mentioned things like Xingyi. A WC guy came in other day to do taiji with us, and during free style push hands, he kept trying to apply WC style arm locks and sweeps but failed because he lacked the ability to lead or to follow and his structure too tight.

I love WC, in particular for its footwork, centerline principles, and applications.But if I were to use it, I would use its principles and the advantage I had thanks to the mental and physical conditioning I received. Just like Taiji, I would never assume a taiji stance or attempt to do push hands. Heck I could use taiji principles even from a boxing stance. I just see too many WC people try to use it the exact way they do it in sparring in competitions, or fights. Especially with the face unprotected (I know that its there to cover the gates) and a narrower stance.Other than my small personal preferences, I still love what WC has brought to martial arts.
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Postby yat_chum » Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:36 am

Hi LionHeart, I took the liberty of posting your post on the wingchunkuen.com forum as part of a question I had on Dim Chun in Shanghai, hope you don't mind! If you get any results I would be interested hear. Jo
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Postby Jim Roselando » Fri Jan 27, 2006 12:20 pm

LionHeart,


Did you study wit Mok Poi On?

He lived in NY for a while back in the 70's!

The style he taught is Pao Fa Lin version of Wing Chun.


Regards,
Jim
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Postby Blarg » Sat Feb 04, 2006 1:12 am

Well, if any Wing Chun student gets in his mind that chi sao is anything other than a training exercise, he's in deep doo doo. He may not have a very good teacher, or perhaps he's just not too bright!

Chi sao is a fanatasic training exercise, but no halfway intelligent wing chun man would mistake it for fighting. Unfortunately, many people seem to assume that a wing chun man's idea of fighting has to do with trying to turn a fight into chi sao. Very silly. A wing chun man has no more interest in playing with someone's hands than anyone else. He simply wants to hit you. In the process, sometimes bridges happen. But they are not sought out specifically, or waited for. Quite the contrary. They're often the result of your own attack having failed! And who wants that? Like anyone else, a wing chun man would be much happier punching your face than having you block it just so he can establish a bridge. :)

Baguamonk -- I view wing chun as a very streamlined, sensible style that forms a solid base to expand from. Its clear logic and simplicity make it a very good core style that builds up some useful fighting proficiency exceptionally quickly. It's a great place to begin; and once you begin, you need to keep growing and learning other things too.

I would definitely expect to see anyone from any style have difficulty with things they were not trained in, and that would certainly include wing chun men having problems with shoots and the like. It's extremely difficult to handle what you're not familiar with. If the person applying it is expert at what you're totally unfamiliar with, then of course it's even tougher! Starting with jiu-jitsu myself, I was as out of my depth when it came to handwork with wing chun men as they are with chokes, throws, and such. Luckily, in today's world most of us have the freedom to eventually cross train in other styles without it being an unspeakable insult to our first teachers or being grounds for a challenge between schools! And I think anyone who doesn't is probably kidding themselves about how well rounded their understanding of fighting really is, as well as about how well their style will protect them from every kind of harm.
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Northern Wing Chun from China

Postby lionHeart » Sat Feb 04, 2006 7:08 am

Hello dose anyone know of a sifu from NYC back in the 70s who taught a Northern Style of Wing Chun from China. He did not speak any english and I want to know his name and name of the wing chun style he taught. The school location was at 120 Daune st in Manhatten, anyone train in nyc at that time please let me know
Thanks
[email protected]
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Postby How Ming » Sun Feb 12, 2006 7:01 am

In my opinion its good to have a good training program in wing chun. It makes a difference and how you perform in sparring.

As for sticky hand. I treat sticky hands as a training drill myself. Seldom do you make contact in sparring long enough. Although you can occasionally use it but not often. Sticky hand is pretty good for reflex development though.
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Northern Wing Chun in NYC

Postby lionHeart » Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:09 am

Hello fellow Wing Chuners

I have a question. Does anyone know a sifu named Chung Yuk Kwai who taught JAN Style Wing Chun in Manhattan, 1974 on Canal street, 2 blocks away from his restaurant called Peking house? I studied wing chun at that time but did not remember my sifus name since at the time he did not speak any english. I like to know if this might be him sifu Chung Yuk Kwai. Can any one help? my e-mail address is: [email protected]
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change of subject matter!

Postby thecrowrains » Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:48 pm

Out of curiosity...

Has anyone in this vast, online forum witnessed or trained in Silat? Pencak Silat? Serak?

It has an ancient lineage, as WC does, but seems very, VERY effective from a flow and energy standpoint.

Any takers on this topic??? If anyone knows, can they explain some of the variances in style ''within'' this art?

peace,
Eric
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Postby BaguaMonk » Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:08 am

I definitely like Silat, I think there was alot of cross training between the styles. Only Silat is still focused on combat, whereareas alot of gong fu styles nowdays are plagued with the "fight like you move in form" and heavy ornamentation. We need to save gong fu guys, we need to bring something similar to what the japanese brought to KyuKoshin.
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Postby DOM » Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:26 am

ya,know were talking.This is what erks me when I here kunfu practitioners put down karate.I seen these guys train and have trained with those who practiced kyokushinkai and it's off shoots and simular styles.These guys are stuff and are the real deal.They will crush most of those from any style.Why,because the way they train.It's not what style is better.It is how they train that style.
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to karate or to flow....linear vs. circular....

Postby thecrowrains » Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:26 pm

food for thought,

now that the karate word has been thrown in the mix, who here finds it difficult to "flow" internally with the linear focus of karate's lines?

After doing a Bagua form, for example, centering and attempting to lower energy, it seems almost disturbing to execute a karate stance: hard, linear, stiff, rigid....it seems completely foreign to one's muscle memory.

I'm sure all the hater replies will follow to this, but it was ONLY meant as an observation. And ONLY meant as an OPINION. I'm sure ''to each his own.''

Everyone finds their own inner-energy despite what Art they adhere to.

peace.
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Postby DOM » Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:14 pm

your obsevation is vage and your opinion is one of little exsperiance and knowlage of karate.
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Postby yat_chum » Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:46 am

Hi thecrowrains, coming from a Chinese martial arts background, had a very dim view on Karate, this wasn’t helped by some of the Karate guys I met at college, there are some complete twonks out there. Nor was my opinion helped my meeting a Karate teacher who seemed to have only got his black belt for length of time doing karate. My attitude completely changed when I met a Shotokan practitioner called Paul (can’t remember his surname) while doing shift work. His skill and attitude blew me away my opinions literally changed over night. Since then I have met seen, and have read about many Sensei’s who I hold in high regard.

Food for thought: Any style is only as good as the person doing it. Wing Chun and Okinawan Karate share the common root of White Crane boxing.



It is never too late to give up our prejudices.
Henry David Thoreau (1817 - 1862), 'Economy,' Walden, 1854
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Chinese flow & Karate's linear patterns

Postby thecrowrains » Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:58 pm

DOM : vage?

Jo Tunmore: Excellent point about the karate practitioner Paul changing your viewpoints. It all is based on the person, not the Art. From a Chinese based background, you surely understood my point. I personally have nothing against karate, only I've noticed a drastic difference with the flow and pace of internal energy from, for example, a Wu Tan, Bagua, or Northern Shaolin form versus the linear-patterns of karate's kata and execution.

to each his own.

peace.
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Postby scramasax57 » Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:05 pm

it actually seemed pretty vague to me too. it sounded like you were just trying to say you didn't like karate without seeming to do so. i don't really see how this is a relevant piece of information to the discussion at hand. i've trained with guys who were very skilled in shotokan before, and from what i've seen there is nothing stiff about good karate. if a karateka is stiff, it's his fault, not karate's. so i think that the reason karate stances feel 'stiff and rigid' to you is because you haven't trained them diligently enough, or else have grown lax in your practice, and so do not have the correct feeling for it. of course every tyle has a different feel; xingyi for instance brings with it an aggressive, charging mentality. but if something feels stiff either it is not authentic (you may have learned bad karate, which i understand is more common than good karate) or you're not doing it right yet.

let's get back to wing chun.
aka eric hinds, 2nd stripe
n. andover, ma branch
yang's martial arts association

changchuan, baihe, and xingyi
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Postby Shen Zhao Pai » Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:10 am

Hi Jo,

I don't think that White Crane and Wing Chun share all that common in their principles and applications and especially the forms. Could you please elaborate on what makes you think they share a common origin?
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Postby yat_chum » Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:41 am

Hi Shen Zhao Pa, I'm surprized that you have even asked the question as I thought I was generally accepted that Wing Chun Kuen had its origins in White Crane. I will have to give the question some thought (I have also posted the question on the W.C.K. forum to see what they come up with). As to the forms thats easy it is believed that they were created on the Red Boats and are unique to W.C.K. Will be in touch soon Jo
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excellent resources on vert. fist

Postby thecrowrains » Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:13 pm

Jo Tunmore,

Have you seen the excellent resources available via Tuttle publishing?
Even Bruce Lee books displayed the advantages of the vertical fist (wing chun punch) versus karate's reverse punch. It's uncanny how much more reach and flow you get from the WC punch vs. the reverse variety.

Lee's photos exemplified this with a photo showing how much more range one receives when executing this.

peace.
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Postby Shen Zhao Pai » Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:24 pm

Hi Jo,

I am talking about this from the perspective that the principles and concepts of White Crane are very different to that found within Wing Chun. Especially in the area of the various jin.
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Postby yat_chum » Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:11 pm

Hi thecrowrains, vertical vs horizontal fist lets put it to the forum
http://www.ymaaschool.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1228


Hi Shen Zhao Pai, I am not the best person to answer your question as my knowledge is limited plus the style of White Crane I do, has probably been influenced by Wing Chun Kuen, I will tell you the history of the style if you are interested. You might find the answer to you question here. http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/s ... hp?t=40240
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