To Wing Chun or not to Wing Chun...

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To Wing Chun or not to Wing Chun...

Postby thecrowrains » Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:01 pm

Forum,

Does anyone here promote/belief in the Wing Chun "systems"?

I"ve been researching quite often about the Shaolin "Arts". During numerous discussions, many I speak with say that when it comes to succinct self-defense, Wing Chun (Wing Tsun, Tzun, Ving Tsun, Ving Tzun, etc) is the most effective.

I've only trained lightly in the Siu Nim Tau form; no actual Chi Sao training.

Anyone here have their "two cents" to put into this statement? I would like to hear what others think about Wing Chun's abilities (if any) over the other arts.

peace,
Eric
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Postby yat_chum » Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:11 pm

Any style is only as good as the person doing it. I wouldn’t say that Wing Chun is the most effective just that it is the most famous thanks to Bruce Lee. Many of the Southern arts that I have experienced are very similar. However I have a lot of fondness for Wing Chun Kuen and think it’s a great Little style. Jo
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Postby thecrowrains » Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:38 pm

Thanks for the reply.

What Art/Style(s) do you currently study? You mentioned that a lot of Southern styles share a resemblance to Wing Chun.

Eric
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Postby DOM » Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:20 pm

Imo wing chun is a great style,like many others.But it depends on how it is being tought and how much effort and time you put in like any other style.IMO Wing chu is like the karate of kung fu.It was developed to purduce a worrier in a short time about 5 years.It's techniqes are relativley easy to learn.I studied it for a few years but what I was learning was very shallow and the instructor was a not a nice guy so I left.I found a guy name John may He studied under many different masters.I beleave his linage was along the same lines as Sifu Duncan.Any way after my fist class the fist few moves of silumdao I realized this was a much deeper art then I was shown.The first form is very very deep internal training,he showed me how to stand hold my hands and position my body in very specifice ways that I was never shown in years of training.He was definatly an inner circle student that was show things other never were.His students would practice this for an hour at a time.Every class was all about real street fighting using the moves from the forms.I met guys that only new the fist form but could realy use it in a fight.In fact these guys who only had a year or two of trainning and only new the first maybe second form and had very little chisau exsperiance would eat the guy I learned from for lunch.I only stayed for a little wile because they trained late at night and was a 150 mile round trip.He said training late was the way he learned because wingchun was ussally tought in chinies resturants,mostly to the workers and taxi cab drivers after hours.Reasearch wing chun on the net there is a lot of info out there realy look into Sifu Duncan,there are others but I can not remmeber their names.These guys learned from yip man himself in Hong Kong were most all martial art schools were involved with gangs.They did not study for health and spirituality they studied to fight and survive the street.Duncan has some training vidioes I would highly recommed showing how they train to use wing chun in the street against multable opponants
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Postby yat_chum » Wed Oct 26, 2005 3:46 am

Hi Eric, I don’t do any formal training at the moment due to family and work commitments but I do practice White Crane and Wing Chun at home when I can. I have dabbled in many styles including Pak Mei, San Ying Kuen and explored others using books and videos. Many southern styles share the same theories and sau, an example would be the centreline theory. Two Wing Chun web sites that I would recommend are http://www.wingchunkuen.com/ & http://www.vtmuseum.org/
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Postby kung fu fighter » Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:23 am

Hi,
All styles are only as good as the person doing it, sometimes it depends on the teachers understanding of his style. I would gladly study with a teacher who had the complete understanding of his style than a wing chun one with incomplete knoledge.

The wing chun style is the most logical style that I have come accross for for self defense. After I finished the wing chun system in 1996 I went out to explore BJJ, thaiboxing, yang tai chi, kyokushin karate etc. But I came to the conclusion that wing chun was the most efficient for me.
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Postby Flip » Wed Oct 26, 2005 12:13 pm

I think the most important thing for self-defense is confidence, poise, and the ability to recognise when it's needed. Any system can give you this if you have the right teacher.

i'm learning the hung gar system popularised by frank yee, and i think it's a good system for self defense. There are elements of tiger, crane, snake, leopard, and dragon in this system, as well as some drunken, monkey, chin-na, grappling (can't remember how to spell "shuoi jiao"), incorporated into it.

It develops both internal and external, has both hard and soft, and is a complete system. There aren't much in the way of high kicks but for self-defense i don't know how important that is.

Most importantly thought, it's developed my spirit and confidence so that now, in unpleasant situations, I have the peace of mind knowing that I can handle it - and if I can't, my wife can - she takes hung gar too :P
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Postby thecrowrains » Wed Oct 26, 2005 12:16 pm

Jo Tunmore, "DOM", and "Kung Fu Fighter",

Thank you all for the replies. Exchanging knowledge via this format is quite enlightening, in the educational sense.

Jo Tunmore > Where did you train in Wing Chun, location-wise, before? Secondly, have you heard good things about the Emin Boztepe lineage? There's just one Wing Chun school here in Anchorage, Alaska, that being the Boztepe school. Thanks for the two links! Lastly, showing my naivete, what does "SAU" mean? .....a block? parry?

"Kung Fu Fighter" & "DOM" > you both sort of alluded to "how" Wing Chun is taught, for its effectiveness to come to the student. There was an instance, a few years back, when I tried the Boztepe school. During the first day of instruction, the teacher asked to ''touch hands''. I was unaware of his intentions; then he proceeded to knock me down, throwing chain-punches and leg sweeps on me during the FIRST day of class. My previous Northern Shaolin training was able to help me to "go soft", avoiding this onslaught. I was a Wing Chun beginner, and decided to stop attending due utter concern for my well being. **There fortunately is another Boztepe branch in another part of town that I'll consider going to.

Overall, I feel that Wing Chun can certainly broaden my knowledge, I just hope to find a compatible teacher that doesn't want to do harm to me on the first day of instruction.

peace,
Eric
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Postby thecrowrains » Wed Oct 26, 2005 12:24 pm

Flip,

I see your point, about the poise and confidence gained from any earnest martial art endeavor. Off topic from Wing Chun, I've been wondering how closely, if at all, is Hung Gar to Choy Li/Lay Fut?

(I did find two Choy Li Fut schools that teach Distance Learning, the www.tatwong.com and the www.plumblossomfederation.com in the San Francisco area. They describe some legend/story of the 100 rooftop battles, pitting Choy Li Fut against Wing Chun. They claim that CLF beat WC in all but one draw at these Hong Kong battles.

Eric
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Postby yat_chum » Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:57 pm

Hi Eric, I trained with the UK Wing Chun Kung Fu Association http://www.ukwingchun.com/
Emin Boztepe, I’ve no personal experience but here's are article about him http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php ... cle&sid=31
Sau just means hand, the term seems to cover the area from the tips of the fingers to the elbow
The stories of CLF beating WCK I’ve heard several stories where he fights have gone the other way. Many styles are quick to say they are better than WCK but like KFF and I said a style is only as good as the person doing it. As to your WC experience I have had similar, it seems to be some instructors way of testing new starters but if you keep being humiliated by the instructor week after week then leave. I find it best not to say to much about previous martial experience when going to a different club and if they notice that I have some skill (and they usually do) I just say I learnt a little bit of kung fu from a friend and not mention a particular style. I would say that it is impossible to achieve any level of skill using videos, etc. without someone to train with. I don’t know about links between CLF and Hung Gar (except the Southern Shaolin temple) but there are strong links between HG and WCK. Jo
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Postby DOM » Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:49 am

I am not a an exspert by any meens in wing chun,I do not even study it any more and what I learned was shallow and not practiced the way it was intended for real street fighting.Infact I was one of the few who could pull off wing chun wile sparring..But this was only because of my previous training.There is defenitly a very aggressive violent offencive side to wing chun.Like a pit viper coiled and ready to strike.If they see any weekness or hesatation in your strategy they will run write threw you.It also depends on the individuals temperment practing the art.Most all martial art styles are very clanish to this day.Wing chun seems to have held on to this more then others.In my research to study with different instuctors I found traditional Wing Chun guys are hard core fighters with hardcore additudes.They will test every one who walks threw the door,in one way or another.Not that this is a bad thing just some are more hard core and if you are not tuff and can not take a beaten then they have no use for you.Most styles were originaly like this,but the times have changed along with the laws and the profits from teaching.Do some research you will find wing chun was the main art for the Gangs of Hong Kong.Some things dye hard.
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Postby thecrowrains » Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:40 am

Excellent points for me to take into concern, DOM and Jo Tunmore.

It was certainly a good learning experience, that quite possibly I was being tested, in no uncertain terms, by that WTzun teacher. I was by no means injured or knocked out: just moved about the floor from his chain punches and leg sweeps. Given that I was a beginner, I certainly didn't see that coming from left field. I managed to avoid his hard punches thank goodness, which seemed to leave him frustrated. I could not fathom why he wanted to place harm on a complete stranger, BUT, DOM, your comment that he has the ''old gang style'' mentality makes sense. He quite possibly wanted to test what ability I had.

I've read some WC school websites that say they foster respect and learning between their teachers and students; best I seek them out instead.

peace,
Eric
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Postby DOM » Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:55 pm

If he didn't hurt you,besides testing you he was most likley giving you a tast of how effective the style was and what you would be learning.If this guy is for the the most part a good guy and he's not out to tune up his skills by abusing his students,then he mite be a good guy to learn wingchun from.If this is what you are looking for.WingChun was developed by a few monks of differant styles to train a warrior in 5 years instead of the usual 20 pluse years.But from there the history seems to point towads mostly gang type activity.So traditionaly the teaching methode will be quit differant than say nothern Shaolin.
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Postby BaguaMonk » Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:03 pm

I like wing chung, but I like other Shaolin systems, it is too systemized and too "calculated" in some terms to be extremely effective in alot of spontaenous situations. But its not the system itself, but how fast your mind, and reactions are. Thats why I think, besides sticky hands (which is great), wing chung should also teach other internal things. You combine Wing Chung with something like Taiji orXingYi (especially), similar to how Bruce Lee researched these systems later, it should have great benefits. That way you don't have to think when fighting, or using WC, just be natural.
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Postby DOM » Tue Nov 01, 2005 7:32 am

the one instructor I trained with for a very short tome tought the first half of the silum dao form as purly niegung training.His classes were not systematized or calculating,they trained mostly reaction type of training with a partner and multable partners.But again this guy was a rare breed.IMO Wing chun was influinced by xingy yi.It has on aggressive side just like xingy yi.Just watch an exsperianced wing chun guy attack wth Chunkan.(If thats how you spell it}It's very much like Pau chaun in xing yi.These guys did not think when attacked just reacted to the attack.Most of them had only a few years of practice new only the first form maybe the second,and these were guys you would deffinatly want on your side in a real steet fight.But again a rare breed.His instructors came right from the streets of Hong kong.I do not remember there names but I do remember that Sifu Duncan was his kung fu uncle.
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Wing Chun VS. Xingy Yi & Chun-Kan & TaiJi?

Postby thecrowrains » Tue Nov 01, 2005 1:02 pm

"DOM" and Bagua Monk,

I think I follow you both, but please correct me if I'm mistaken: You are both implying that Wing Chun is LESS favorable than Xingy or Taiji?

From an outsider's perspective I can see how WC's technical basics might seem too complicated or systemized, as you alluded to 'Bagua Monk'.

Wing Chun does surely work with those who have attained a level of proficiency beyond thinking about it's core techniques, I ASSUME.

DOM, you mentioned a man who was a rare breed in teaching WC. Do you recall his name or what side of the states he teaches at?

Lastly, who here follows or knows of the Grandmaster Cheung lineage? or of the Leung Ting lineage?

peace,
Eric
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Postby thecrowrains » Tue Nov 01, 2005 1:07 pm

by the way,

What is "XINGYI"? I'm vaguely familiar with Tai Ji/Tai Chi.....that super meditative, inner power Art people practice at 4am at the mainland????

As for Chun Kan/Chan Kun, I'm at a COMPLETE loss as to that style/art.

This is a great forum for learning and exchanging ideas.

~Eric
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Postby DOM » Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:40 pm

No I am not implying that wing chun is less favable.In fact I thought I said just the opposit.Any way xingyi is a chinies internal martial art.It is the only offensive chinies martial art,it was created for war.Chunkan (my spelling is most likely wrong) is an aggressive offensive movement that is used to run threw the opponent down their center line threw their gaurd.just like xingyi chaun.The instuctor was Sifue John May from N.J
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Postby Blarg » Sat Jan 21, 2006 9:31 am

Wing chun isn't about thinking during fighting. It's the exact opposite. It teaches you to instinctively make sound, tight movements that keep your gates covered and make your structure hard to collapse, and let your energy go forward into any opening automatically.

The fierce energy noted by a poster above is very much present in Wing Chun. It is extremely aggressive and is constantly moving to strike. There is no thinking about it, but the entire focus of a Wing Chun practitioner is on moving without thought, every moment, into a strike. Whatever is open is fine.

I remember reading a Wing Chun man talking about how he only trains with the butterfly knives, one of two wing chun weapons, occasionally, because it is so aggressive that he felt it made his sticking hands actually cruel, and he felt he might become too brutal. That's definitely the full bore commitment of Wing Chun.

The essence of Wing Chun energy, as I understood it and practiced it, reminded me greatly of the "growing energy" described by Master Yang in one of his tai chi books. In Wing Chun, we would refer to it as "spring energy" or "forward energy." One did indeed cultivate feeling like a spring constantly exploding toward one's opponent. The only reason not to be striking him once in range was because a bridge had not been established or there was no clear opening. Of course, striking could itself create that very bridge, and then the game proceeded automatically, holes in the opponent's defense ideally being instantly filled without thought by a strike as part of the hair-trigger energy of constantly exploding the instant an opportunity was felt or somehow recognized.

Master Yang described this energy as purely yang, and it's about as yang as it gets. But it is of course useless without having one's reflexes and structure carefully tuned. And if one is actually tense, or thinking, the energy will not flow smoothly and automatically into openings, and indeed one won't even be able to detect them Additionally,the structure is more likely to fail and movements will lose power. The other side of the coin of the tremendous yang of spring energy is the more yin listening energy and relaxation necessary to apply it correctly.

Wing chun is a style that can look choppy and brutal, and also look very yin and disconnected with any fighting reality to people who don't really understand what is being refined and tested in sticking hands(chi sao) and why it is valuable. Wing chun above the very basic levels cultivates aspects of both yin and yang energy and needs both of them to work at anything like its potential. It is far from a calculating style; it instead strives to instill principles of good structure and movement, and train them to become so natural and instictive that they will be applied without the intermediary of thought.
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Postby lionHeart » Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:31 am

Hello I have a question. I stuided wing chun in NYC back in the 70's The school was located at 120 Daune St in Manhatten. My sifu said it was a Northern Style of Wing Chun from Chine which was different from Yip Man. I have tried to locate this sifu but I don't know his name since he did not speak any english. The forms are different than Yip Man style. Can any one help me with findina any INFO on this style of wing chun and anyone know the name of this sifu? Please let me know Thanks
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