WHITE CRANE COMBAT STRATEGIES

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WHITE CRANE COMBAT STRATEGIES

Postby kung fu fighter » Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:31 am

Hello,

what does the following white crane strategies mean and how are they applied in combat?

1. Going to Fourth door
2. Breaking bridge
3. Use 4 ounces to move 1000
4. Touch and go
5. Making noise in the east/striking in the west


Are these Basic White Crane Hands similar to wing chun hand techniques such as Bong sao , tan sao, fuk sao etc? what the concept behind these white crane hands?

1. Fire hand
2. Water hand
3. Metal hand
4. Earth hand
5. Wood hand

Thanks
Last edited by kung fu fighter on Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WHITE CRANE COMBAT STRATEGIES

Postby Flip » Mon Oct 03, 2005 6:57 am

Hi,

I don't study white crane, but I can give some of this a shot ....

1. Going to Fourth door

the 'doors' are sides of a person (eg front, left side, right side, back)
I think the 4th door is the back. It may have to do w/ circling around the opponent(?)

2. Breaking bridge

Bridges are generally the forearm and arm techniques you use to stop somebody from getting to you with an attack. In hung gar there's 12 bridges (or fourteen, can't remember). "Breaking the bridge" is getting past that and inside the gate so you can attack an opponent.

3. Use 4 ounces to move 1000

I'm guessing this has something to do with upsetting a person's stance and center of gravity, or using their energy and momentum against them

4. Touch and go
?

5. Making noise in the east/striking in the west

Not sure in a white crane context but this is probably exactly what it sounds like...make an attack seem to be coming from one angle/part of yoru body, but strike with another as the opponent retreats from the 'fake' attack.

Anyhow, these are my best guesses, I'm sure somebody will correct me..
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Postby zipwolf » Mon Oct 03, 2005 7:36 am

i thought the 4 ounces to move 1000 was more a taiji term.

Regardless, it pretty much means what it says, using the least force to win against the most.

But i'm sure there is more depth to it then that, Que walter?
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Postby Walter Wong » Mon Oct 03, 2005 8:44 am

We don't talk much about the concepts in class. I think they're in the Shaolin White Crane book by Master Yang though.

As far as I know, YMAA White Crane, much like any other Chinese style or traditional Martial Art of any other culture want to use the least amount of effort to take out your opponent. YMAA Crane is ideally attacking and defending from angles of your opponent rather than in front of them. Power's generated from waist and spine. There's a penetrating snap from the body into the hands when you strike. Master Yang considers our Crane to combatively be "sleeping crane". As in terms of "if you don't move, I don't move" "but when you move, I will move faster to intercept you". This stillness of not moving if you're opponent doesn't move makes the Crane practitioner to appear to be a "sleeping crane". Just quiet, still, no bouncing or twitching, no movement period. Then as the opponent moves and before they can fully execute their attack, the Crane is explosive, moves faster and to the point. The ability to stick once contact is made is emphasized as well. When you make contact with their arms, you have to manipulate their limbs out of the way with this sticking for an opening big enough for you to strike. I think that's what "breaking the bridge" maybe talking about.

As for making concept comparisons with Wing Chun, I never trained Wing Chun so it's hard for me to say. There are similarities in principles and strategies between Wing Chun and southern Crane. After all, Wing Chun has Crane elements.
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Postby darth_freak » Mon Oct 03, 2005 8:46 am

aren't the 4 doors left, right, UP and DOWN? rather than front and back?
i'd agree with zipwolf...I think it's like, using the minimal strength but generate a lot of power...
touch and go? c'mon that one's easy: you hit so if you don't take down or something you get out of the opponent's reach!
i don't know about the bridge and i agree with flip for the 5th point.
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Postby kung fu fighter » Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:19 pm

Hi Walter,
"You mentioned that YMAA Crane is ideally attacking and defending from angles of your opponent rather than in front of them."

Are these angles the baat gwa (8 angles)?

How do you guy establish the angles, do you try to set up an angle just outside of the fighting range where neather combatants can reach each other without taking a step, or do you have to wait for the opponent's attack and then counter with angles in close range?


Thanks
Last edited by kung fu fighter on Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby scramasax57 » Mon Oct 03, 2005 6:33 pm

like walter said, its a sleeping crane system, so we wait, then move once they attack. in my crane training, which is probably less than walter's (so i hope he confirms this), i've always trained stepping to 45 degrees, left or right, forwards for hand strikes, locks, and takedowns, and backwards for kicks or simple evasion.

i might add that although your curiosity in our style is commendable, alot of the things you're asking are very advanced. i'm guessing you have a background in wing chun, but that doesn't entirely enable you to understand these things by us just telling you. if you really want to learn the essense of white crane, why not actually find a crane teacher to learn from instead of asking us? we're only students.
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Postby yat_chum » Mon Oct 03, 2005 7:32 pm

Hi KFF, I have heard two versions of Breaking bridge the first is using your bridging hand to destroy your opponents structure, making him lose his balance and thus easier to attack. The second is if your structure is compromised you disengage and are therefore breaking the bridge.
Making noise in the east/ striking in the west means to use a feint (is this the right word? it’s getting late here) to open up your opponents guard making his easier to hit with the other hand.

I have seen most of the hands you mentioned in the Feeding Crane system.
1. Fire hand is a pak sau to your opposite side followed by a lan sau with the other hand, this is done in one flowing movement.
2. Water hand is a double tan/tun sau
3. Gold (Metal) hand is like the double jut sau to biu sau from the Siu Lim Tao form.
4. Earth hand is a double hand block using tan and pak sau.
5. Wood hand? I haven’t seen it.
Here is an extra, Yin Yang hand equivalent to kwun sau.
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Postby kung fu fighter » Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:43 am

what are some of the principles used in white crane to establish a bridge and how do you close in or bridge the gap on an opponent from long to close range on an opponent such as a thai boxer or choy lay fut kung fu fighter who uses evasive footwork to maintain long range?
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Postby yat_chum » Tue Oct 04, 2005 4:48 am

I have never fought with a Thai boxer or anyone who has does Choy Li Fut but I have sparred with kick boxers, Karate and Taekwondo guys, the key is not to get sucked into playing them at their own game (easier said than done). Use your environment, back them into corners, against walls or any other objects or learn to fight against the wall yourself. I have seen many of these fighters hurt themselves in fights in pub and clubs because their techniques to work in the environment that they are in. If in open ground wait for them to come to you, don’t try to chase them around and when they come in for the kill move in fast. Many long range fighters use a side on stance it is relatively easy to behind them when they are in close. The bridging methods are more or less the same as Wing Chun use tan, bong, fook, lop etc., stick to your opponent, many martial artists can’t cope in chi sau range. Use the centreline theory and angle your attack. When your opponent is in your range dominate him, don’t give him an inch use your skill to trap and control his limbs. If its a real fight get dirty use elbows, knees and claws and gouges.
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Postby Walter Wong » Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:12 am

Actually I don't train my Crane as much as I should. So don't worry scrasamax. You're probably light years beyond me.

I haven't sparred a thai boxer or Choy Lay Fut fighter either yet. Just from sparring sessions at the school observing myself and others sparring especially our guys that specialize in White Crane: If they're overly aggressive just wait for them to come to you, create your opportunity by angling their attack. If neither is engaging for attack yet and you want to attack. Small shuffle steps in and do it calmly and relaxed but be ready for anytime they attack. Beware of kicks that will come in or low kicks. Come in without seeming to be aggressive and that can relax them a bit which lowers their guard a little which is what you want, make your hand contact with their closest forearm and manipulate their limbs out of the way and execute your strikes.

Now how to do this in a White Crane manner is difficult to explain like Scrasamax said. You need to come train with us in our White Crane if you're curious how White Crane does it.

There are too many things going on like body alignment, stance, sticking, patterns used to create those opportunities to open your opponent up to your strikes. This requires training. Please enroll in a YMAA branch for White Crane training to better understand the question you're asking. Discussion is fine on internet. But learning how one style does it needs to have a live instructor showing you and it's alot more clearer that way.
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Postby kung fu fighter » Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:49 pm

Thanks guys!

Hi Walter,
what I am looking for is the white crane concept/principles involved in bridging, not necessaryly the white crane techniques per se. I dont have access to a white crane school where I live that's why I have been asking these questions.

In wing chun we have Man sao (inquistive hands) to establish a bridge by throwing an uncommitted movement toward the opponent to feel his intent. what do you guys have in white crane which is similar to this in concept?
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Postby scramasax57 » Tue Oct 04, 2005 8:13 pm

the concepts/principles are inseperable from the technique. we can discuss them, but all you'll have is words. these things can't really be said.

we would be more like to wait, then after blocking immediately start using that contact to control by sealing or grabbing. but again, i cannot even come close to giving you a complete idea of even my own limited knowledge with words. there's no such thing as a martial arts "scholar". intellectual knowledge without physical knowldge is useless in the martial arts.
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Postby yat_chum » Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:53 am

In White Crane we use man sau in the same way, its just called a different name, in fact all of the Wing Chun hand shapes are found in most of the Southern styles.
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Postby yat_chum » Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:12 am

Quote for the day "Knowledge without skill is useless and skill without knowledge is a waste of time." Chee Kim Thong the late Malaysian Ngo Cho Kun grandmaster
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use stillness to overcome movement
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Postby Walter Wong » Thu Oct 06, 2005 8:23 am

Where do you live Kung Fu Fighter?

Well, if you ever come to Boston, please come by the YMAA headquarters here in Jamaica Plain area. It would be easier for me to explain in person with some hands on demonstration and we can play around with some chi sau afterwards to explore the White Crane and Wing Chun similarities. I did a little chi sau with a Wing Chun friend a month ago. I've injured my shoulder again so I'm waiting to recover first before him and I have a go again. But when we did, even though he does Wing Chun with no White Crane training and I do "some" White Crane (I don't train Crane enough as I should be) with no Wing Chun training, it was interesting to see we were doing the certain things that were the same to each other in terms of stickiness and looking for openings or creating openings for strikes. Our bodies were moving a little differently and strikes were a little different as well but similar.
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Postby kung fu fighter » Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:00 pm

Hi Walter,
I am in Toronto Canada, and there are no good White Crane school here that I know of.
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Postby Hephaestus » Thu Oct 06, 2005 7:32 pm

Sadly, Toronto is indeed low on gongfu in general.
There is supposed to be a YMAA branch of somekind out there . . . should be in a listing on the site somewhere.
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Postby Patbirder » Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:41 pm

I am surprised that you say Toronto doesnt have much to offer as far as Chinese martial arts go. I was under the impression that there were several schools there- or maybe its just that many places seem to have a lot more to offer compared to central Illinois!
the "environment" is not separate from who you are
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Postby Hephaestus » Fri Oct 07, 2005 9:27 pm

I would have thought Toronto would have more CMA schools, but there really aren't many, and particularly few of quality.
Most MA schools in Toronto (and there are many of them) teach TKD (ITF and WTF), Hapkido (several federations), Jujutsu (Japanese and Brazilian), MMA, Judo, Karate (several styles), and so forth. A few quality Japanese sword schools from what I hear as well.
I'm sure there are a couple of quality CMA schools in TO, just difficult to find.

But, Vancouver is where its at for CMA -- this is the center of Asian culture in Canada. :D
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