An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby Josh Young » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:53 pm

It is my wish that my opinion on this does not offend.

Qi is both breath and energy, the two have been linked. Consider even the vedic systems, they go back several thousand years, the word used there is prana, and it once again has connotations of the breath. It flows through meridian lines, called by a different name in Hindu languages. It is trained and worked with via posture based meditation exercises that link breath and motion and have martial connections, are assosciated with interesting powers and phenomena, and are linked to legendary saints and mystical figures.

David brough up Dharma, which is vedic in origin and links to these older vedic systems , in fact early buddhist art has buddha posed in the same martial/spiritual postures found in vedda. And of course he was a warrior and so was trained in hindu martial arts and practices.

My point being that qigong like practices and phenomena are ancient and practiced by many asiatic cultures. In each of these cultures the words used have the same meanings. The widespread recognition and use of breath energy work, assosciated with immortal warrior saints, and the well known effects of such practices in these cultures (thai, tibetan, chinese, hindu and others) support the concepts.

David brough up placebo, I wanted to mention that there is evidence to suggest that it can work in stgrange ways, as if you can take a placebo and if you believe that another person will be affected by it, they will. Where the mind goes... the energy does too. All of cultures I mention teach mind and body control practices like mudra, mantra and postures, all of them recognize amazing benefits fo those who put their whole being towards the practice. The stated benefits in each case are identical .
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby wpgtaiji » Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:13 pm

Josh Young wrote: All of cultures I mention teach mind and body control practices like mudra, mantra and postures, all of them recognize amazing benefits fo those who put their whole being towards the practice. The stated benefits in each case are identical .

See! Activities! Look at the common activities and ignore what the symbol is. That is the only way one can ever look accurately at ideas that originated in different times, under different conditions. You will find that you will come up with identical activities! There is nothing new under the sun :P

And no one has ever come up with a REASON WHY energy exists, what its purpose is! We, in the west, call it many different names, electricity, magnetism, etc, but at its root, its the same "stuff"! Saying qi is energy and breath is redundant. Both are energy! (Energy IS)

See the problems that come up with symbols? It is useless and has cost more blood shed than anything else. WHAT ARE THE ACTIVITIES?

btw, i am more than a little aware that this will not be answered here! None of us are god (though there may be some god complexes around). This is for your own, individual benefit. Though it is unlikely that those who need it the most arent paying attention at all...
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby Monsoon » Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:12 pm

Though it is unlikely that those who need it the most arent paying attention at all...


:? Read it carefully :D

@Josh, just for a laugh I put the symbol for Qi into Google translate and asked it to translate from Chinese to English. It gave the translation as... prana! I found that deliciously funny, although given the nature of English and the historical connection between Britain and India I should not have been so surprised.

@wpgtaiji, totally agree actually (predictably, as you tell me I am). It is well known, outside of taiji type circles, that certain ideas/ concepts that arise from a particular culture require that culture and its language for proper expression - i.e something is always lost in translation. That actions speak louder than words (to borrow a cliche) is also well-known and understood. However, it is extremely difficult to observe internal actions if, as the observer, one is not the practitioner. Which is where language tries to bridge the gap.

@joeblast, vacuum is not a substrate. It is the absence of any substrate. Of course, by vacuum we could be talking about a mere absence of matter. However, as matter and energy are essentially the same thing, perhaps it is incorrect to refer to a vacuum that is full of energy but not matter in their respective states. Therefore we would have to redefine what a vacuum really is. Kind of agreeing with you really, as I do think that what we perceive as the emptiness of a vacuum is in fact still some kind of resonant energy state, although if I understand it properly (which is highly doubtful) physicists will say that in a true vacuum there are no energy interactions. How light, for example, travels through the vacuum of space suggests either that space is not a true vacuum, or that there is an underlying undiscovered energy field.

Very interesting.
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby wpgtaiji » Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:56 pm

wasnt meaning you monsoon! :)
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby Monsoon » Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:25 pm

I know :D I just thought it was a typo and the unlikely should have been likely!
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby chh » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:30 am

Be careful with the way you interpret experiments about the placebo effect. The 'mind over matter' interpretation is not that well supported.

It tends to be the case that placebo effect is significant in 1: cases of self reported measures like 'pain', but not so much in objective clinical measures, and 2: cases where observer bias isn't controlled for (cases where the person making measurements knows who took the placebo and who didn't).

So you can find the placebo generally when you ask people whether they feel different, but not so much when you're looking for actual physiological changes, and you find it much more in cases where the experimenter's expectations are probably influencing the way they record data rather than the way peoples' bodies react.

I'm not saying this is universally the case, but I think the support for a 'mind over matter' type of interpretation is pretty weak. It is much better supported that people's expectations about a situation influence the way they experience and characterize the situation.

edit: the wikipedia article has some decent discussion of this throughout. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo_ef ... the_effect
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby Dvivid » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:30 am

This research is fairly new. Once it has some time to become mainstream, it will be more widely accepted and understood (and allowed on wikipedia). We are on the cutting edge here.

That's why I like saying, Qigong is the future of medicine, not the past.

Ted Kaptchuck's very recent controlled study report about the placebo says there is more to this that was originally thought. People are not only "feeling" better, but they are healing (in some cases). He has a degree in TCM and is not trying to 'disprove' acupuncture, but he has been researching for 15 years about the role the mind-alone plays in healing.
http://harvardmagazine.com/2013/01/the- ... phenomenon

It is also true that in some cases, people 'feel' better, but their ailment has not yet improved. Western medicine is usually needed for people who are already presenting a disease. The placebo effect, and energy healing in general, tends to take time, effort, and repeated repetition. It can be slow in affecting lasting change (if your condition developed over X# of years, it may take the same time or longer to reverse it without medicine). So ideally, both methods will be used in conjunction with one another.

And, as far as "mind over matter", we don't understand this completely yet either. But, as I have mentioned before, the emerging western medical fields of psychoneuroimmuniology and epigenetics are describing the mind's role in healing, and a lot of what they're finding sounds exactly like the 'internal alchemy' process of the internal arts. (I agree with Josh, this process is the same in many cultures around the world, whether Daoist, Buddhist, Hindu, and even ancient Aryan). And now, Western science is starting to get into this area. (So, yes, wpg, we agree on this?! It is about the activities, mental and physical. Forget the terminology.)

I quote myself:
"Internal alchemy is referred to in many cultures around the world, including most ancient civilizations. In Buddhism, Daoism, and qigong, it refers to the process of increasing your body's energy, and clearing the mind, allowing the body's energy to be directed inward for meditation.

It involves conserving and stimulating your hormone production, which was referred to in ancient documents as 'essence'. Through the metabolic process, and deep breathing and accumulation of ions, the body's cells are energized. Hormones act as a catalyst in the body to expedite the metabolic process, releasing more energy, which is then conserved. In addition, the mind is calmed, the sympathetic nervous system relaxes, the blood chemistry and immune response improve, and this healthier state of mind allows for healthier gene expression, with lasting benefits, even overcoming genetic predispositions to disease.

Epigenetics postulates that, although you have a genetic predisposition to a disease, it does not mean that you will certainly express the genes related to that disease. Your mental behavior, choices, and lifestyle (including nutrition) determine which genes are expressed. If your lifestyle is healthier, you will express healthier genes, AND you may break the cycle of passing down a hereditary issue.

For most of us, your health is a choice. You are not a helpless victim of symptoms or disease. Symptoms and disease and most often the result of your choices, except obviously in the cases of people born with serious, chronic or terminal disease, or those that develop quickly in younger people.

With the practice of meditation, you learn to calm the emotions, focus your energy in the brain inward to the limbic system, and then lead it down into the abdomen, which is the location of the second brain in the human body, known as the enteric nervous system." This concept has been understood in the internal arts for thousands of years, discussed in Buddhist sutras and before, and described in Chinese qigong as the real lower dan tian.

(P.S. - also, I agree that saying "Qi energy" is redundant. We only do that to educate beginners. It's like saying "Bo Staff". The Japanese word Bo means staff, so its like saying Staff Staff. Or Energy Energy. Whatever the heck that is.)
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby wpgtaiji » Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:53 pm

I dont recall anyone talking about mind over matter, but it could have! I was focused on making sure people understood what i was getting at, cuz it was causing confusion.

Let's take a look at "mind over matter" really briefly. What is "matter"? How do we know what matter is?

The easy answer is "WE SEE IT! FEEL IT! HEAR IT! etc", and that is correct. But what are all these? They are ways for the mind to experience the world (seeing, hearing, touching, etc), otherwise known as the 5 senses! Even the devices that test for these only give information to the mind through our senses, so even the answers are part of it! Pretty simple! But so misunderstood by so many!

See, we dont actually feel or taste anything! It is the MIND that experiences it. The 5 are filters only. So in a very real sense, everything in the world is ONLY what your mind interprets. We see it all the time (even in this thread!) People misunderstand all the time. We individually place importance on different parts of the information we receive based on how we have programed our filters (mental faculties).

I have read a case study of a person with "multiple personalities". The interesting thing was, one of the personalities was Diabetic (requiring insulin), while the others were not, and exhibited NO SYMPTOMS at all when that personality wasnt present. I know this is one case, but it is interesting.

My point, if everything is interpreted by mind, then matter is mind, at least to what an individual considers it. There are even some who suggest than when an area is in anyone's conscious awareness, it ceases to exist until one becomes aware of it again! :)

So, all this "non-supported" may just very well be, the people attempting to register the results are actually testing for oxygen using devices to test for water... to dumb it down, have no idea what they are looking for, so they arent using the right equipment to test! After all, people KNEW for a fact that the world was Flat, and that was "science" at one time.

FLAME ON! Some minds arent open to anything "non-scientific" because they fail to understand that we are not physical beings, that nothing about a human being points to being a physical creature, when we look at the root of things! Hell, we arent even like our closest "relatives", apes! Not by a mile, yet science says we are! Its so funny! Maybe if we were our true selves, everyone would start to get the joke. What is the joke? That you are a physical creature! :)

FLAME!! :P
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby Monsoon » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:22 pm

Now we're having a debate!

@wpgtaiji, a couple of points.

1.
So, all this "non-supported" may just very well be, the people attempting to register the results are actually testing for oxygen using devices to test for water... to dumb it down, have no idea what they are looking for, so they arent using the right equipment to test!


While I understand what you are saying here, this really wasn't the point I touched on regarding testing of phenomena. In experiments using qi there are two main things to look for: the type of energy in play, and the end effect. The thing is you can measure the end effect without any specialised equipment at all, but not the energy in play. Meaning that if there is an observable end effect then something is obviously happening. How it is happening is a further intriguing question. To be fair this only applies to those cases where people are making claims of overt end effects. I think we should be cautious when it comes to deciding which camp a particular case belongs to.

2.
Hell, we arent even like our closest "relatives", apes! Not by a mile, yet science says we are!


This is not correct. Humans and apes are the end-points of their respective evolutionary branches - not the high point, the end point: there is a difference. Those branches diverged a very long time ago. Apes ARE our closest genetic relatives, but the closeness is relative! (did you see what I did there?). We are alike in as many ways as we are different. In evolutionary biology 'alikeness' (for want of a term) is also relative. We are more like monkeys than bees, for example.

If everything in the world is ONLY what the mind interprets then this holds true for every creature that uses the same senses.

In a way this echoes the notion of buddha nature.

There has been a long existing argument raging over whether the universe is real or experientially induced. No sign of an answer yet!

Mind you, even if it could be proved that the Universe exist only through the perceptions of our minds, if we cannot alter any of it the position would be somewhat moot I guess.
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby chh » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:53 pm

Dvivid- Are you talking about the 2011 NEJM article? I don't see anything newer in that Harvard Magazine article.

This is an important sentence in the conclusion of that paper, coming right after he's done talking about the subjective reporting: "For the objective physiological outcome (change in FEV1), there was a powerful medication effect (drug vs. placebo) but no placebo effect (no difference between placebo and the no-intervention control)."

That paper does a good job of supporting the generalization I made- that the placebo effect can be very strong for self reported measures and that objective measures don't show a placebo effect.

I think it can be good for people to believe that they're getting better, but I still think it's misguided to draw any conclusions about the mind causing healing to happen.
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby wpgtaiji » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:36 pm

Monsoon wrote:2.
Hell, we arent even like our closest "relatives", apes! Not by a mile, yet science says we are!


This is not correct. Humans and apes are the end-points of their respective evolutionary branches - not the high point, the end point: there is a difference. Those branches diverged a very long time ago. Apes ARE our closest genetic relatives, but the closeness is relative! (did you see what I did there?). We are alike in as many ways as we are different. In evolutionary biology 'alikeness' (for want of a term) is also relative. We are more like monkeys than bees, for example.

If everything in the world is ONLY what the mind interprets then this holds true for every creature that uses the same senses.


Mate, the statement is indeed true! I understand the biology of it all! That human beings have tried to piece it all together and create a "tree", but mate, look at the activities! Dont i sound like a broken record?

If i were to take a seed of an apple tree, no matter how much i wanted, planting that seed in the ground will ONLY give me an apple tree (or nothing, depending on my skill level, but assume it grows). That is the activity of an apple seed!

An animal, as much as many dog owners would want it otherwise, are the exact same! People try to add "human" characteristics to animals, but an ape will always and forever be an ape! It cannot act like anything else, but an ape! It can only interact with its environment in one way, as an ape! That is the activity of an ape seed!

Now humans are very different! Not even in the same realm! A human seed can be anything it chooses! :) Yes, it still will look like a human, that wont change, but what that human does is not limited by its seed. We have humans who kill, humans who build, humans who love, in fact, no two humans are the same, nor will circumstance dictate what that human will accomplish, as much as some scientists want us to believe otherwise.

The activity of a human is unlike anything else on earth, while the genetics have similarities, yes, no one, as of yet, can tell us why, being so similar, humans have far exceed the accomplishments of the next closest relative.

In fact, when we talk of mind, it gets a bit crazy because now one MUST admit to oneself that there is a universal mind! If everything is in mind, how could there be anything but? This is an argument on consciousness! I have heard it put that a human is merely a consciousness that is conscious of itself (making each human part of one).

You keep falling into the trap of believing we are merely physical beings! When BELIEF is considered, all that goes out the window. Belief is not physical! :)

But what do i know.
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby Monsoon » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:16 pm

You see, this is where predictable old me has to disagree.

The mistake you (wpgtaiji) are making is assuming that humans stand outside of the spectrum of Earth-dwelling animals. We do not. We are essentially the same. The major difference between the groups (physiology aside - and not even then for some people! :P ) is that we are are much better at exploitation.

Your analogy of the seed is imprecise. A human grows into a human, and an ape grow into an ape. Behavioural changes occur through external agency such as parenting, environment/resources. However you might want to tart it up, humans only interact with the environment in one way, as humans. The only difference is our ability to adapt resource use.

Obviously I am glossing over the fact that humans are, generally, way more abstractly intelligent than other animals.

We have humans who kill, humans who build, humans who love, in fact, no two humans are the same, nor will circumstance dictate what that human will accomplish, as much as some scientists want us to believe otherwise.


No two chimpanzees are the same. There are some who are social and some who are loners. Some who hunt and some who don't. Some kill other chimps and some don't. Sound familiar?
Our accomplishments mean nothing. We are born, we live, we die. Just like everything else.

The activity of a human is unlike anything else on earth, while the genetics have similarities, yes, no one, as of yet, can tell us why, being so similar, humans have far exceed the accomplishments of the next closest relative.


The activity of 'modern' humans is remarkably similar to all the variations of humans that span between us and the branching from the ape tree. The reason that our existing closest relatives are so different from us is threefold: 1. we exist on a separate branch, 2. human variation has been evolutionarily whittled down to what we are now, and 3. the most important fact (and one that most people just do not get) is that we, as adults, are no longer on the evolutionary ladder - this line appears to stop with us. If there is further evolution of the human species it will be away from how we are now, they will supplant us, we will go extinct and THEIR nearest existing relatives will still be the apes!

Please remember that evolution is not a record of advancement or progress, it is only a record of change due to environmental pressure. People are so human-centric that they believe we are evolving with purpose - which is frankly quite laughable.

In fact, when we talk of mind, it gets a bit crazy because now one MUST admit to oneself that there is a universal mind! If everything is in mind, how could there be anything but? This is an argument on consciousness! I have heard it put that a human is merely a consciousness that is conscious of itself (making each human part of one).


Interesting but there is no MUST. The concept of a group consciousness is not new. It is a possibility, but the trap, my debating friend, is that the path to solipsism lies this way. Also, if the Universe is really one mind, of which we are part, what would the purpose be of keeping the parts ignorant of each other? That's just one question that leaps to my 'part of the Universal mind'! There are a flock of others.

You keep falling into the trap of believing we are merely physical beings! When BELIEF is considered, all that goes out the window. Belief is not physical!


There is no trap. Words like 'merely' and 'belief' are terribly misleading. And deliberate methinks. Matter and energy, two sides of the same coin. The physical world is made of both types and everything in between. Humans have a physical (matter) presence that is infused (as is everything else) with energy. Our physical bodies are here right now. If you truly 'believed' that this was not the case then you would dispose of yours right away, but you haven't. /would have saved me a lot of typing :twisted:
But what do i know.


Indeed!
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby wpgtaiji » Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:20 pm

How do you discuss the beauty of a sunset with someone who is wearing sunglasses?

mate, you missed the point, yet again! I dont want to repeat the same thing 4 more times until you get it!

Of course human activity has always been the same! That is the point!

An ape has no ability to change what or who they are. They are what they are and will be that way for all time. Are they the same as others? Of course not! But they are all apes, in all their unchanging apeness! AND before you throw a study at me showing "this ape changed", i mean OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL! An animal is an animal because that is all it knows. period.

Now, a human, one day, can be the poorest soul on earth, and the next, the wealthiest soul on earth (it has happened MANY times in our history, and i am speaking in absolute money terms). Accomplishment or our results are ALL we have! Without our results, there is no life! And i am talking about results in the most mundane, not just the new year's resolutions set, but ALL results. I love Maltz' book, because it is scientifically relevant! A human mind, the subconscious or what he called servo-mechanism, MUST have a target to go after. A human, unlike any other life form on earth, can change what they go after in moments! All other life forms (apes included) are bound by their genetics. The closeness to our relatives (chimps) is not even close in the most important of all aspects (that which makes us HUMAN! Our minds)

You continue to talk about the physical. You have to let it go man! Science will one day catch up to the truth of what we are, but not by cataloging small difference.

My apologies for not being clear previously. I sense this will go on and on as well, until, like in other, you will end up agreeing with me (cuz i am right :) ). I love discussing science with scientists! Seeing how far their beliefs go before they start to realize they dont know it all (but can't admit it) is fun! :)
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby Monsoon » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:42 pm

You are actually making a category error in equating what a person does with their time and what they physically are.

The correct comparison is: an ape will always be an ape, and a human will always be a human.

It does not matter if a human is poor one day and rich the next, is uneducated one year and gets a PhD the next, they are still a human - nothing more, nothing less.

At the purely physical level we are what we are NOT what we do. And make no mistake, I WAS talking about the physical aspect not the mental aspect.

In terms of mind we may be considered as extrapolations of the same minds that are used by other animals... unless you are suggesting that humans did not spring from the unending animal evolutionary path (of which we are still a part). Please tell me you don't actually believe that humans are not linked this way.

Accomplishment or our results are ALL we have!
You actually believe this too? Fascinating. And if our strivings lead diercetly to our extinction that will be quite the accomplishment too I guess. Not that there will be anybody to preen about it.

Yet to answer your point on accomplishments I give you the words of Hsin Hsin Ming:

Before enlightenment - chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment - chop wood, carry water.

Maltz really was talking about cultivating a self-image before setting off after your goals. ALL animals have goals, we are no different. Dress it up how you will, but with few exceptions all goals are resource oriented. Apes have goals too: food, warmth, company, sex, shelter... to name just a few, and they will cultivate a 'self-image' to acquire them. Questions of scale are not really questions at all.

You continue to talk about the physical. You have to let it go man! Science will one day catch up to the truth of what we are, but not by cataloging small difference.


Science is well aware of the physical/energy dualism. You seem to think it is not aware of this. Our physical world is not a figment of our imaginations.

I love discussing science with scientists! Seeing how far their beliefs go before they start to realize they dont know it all (but can't admit it) is fun!


Leaving aside personal issues, science doesn't have 'beliefs' it has theories that are or aren't testable. Learn the difference. Science is an exploration into the unknown. The second part of your statement is unfounded and quite typical of the layperson's perspective of scientists.

How do you discuss the beauty of a sunset with someone who is wearing sunglasses?


Is there something to discuss?
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby wpgtaiji » Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:59 am

Monsoon wrote:Maltz really was talking about cultivating a self-image before setting off after your goals. ALL animals have goals, we are no different. Dress it up how you will, but with few exceptions all goals are resource oriented. Apes have goals too: food, warmth, company, sex, shelter... to name just a few, and they will cultivate a 'self-image' to acquire them. Questions of scale are not really questions at all.

Mate, once again, this is number 3 and you have no clue! Yes, Maltz talked about self image, in fact, one of the pioneers! :) Animals have no choice in their goals! EAT! SLEEP! SEX! That's the life of an animal!

Humans have a choice! Some humans DO live that way, most certainly, the world around us,and even the internet shows that other humans choose differently! Different goals!

Science is well aware of the physical/energy dualism. You seem to think it is not aware of this. Our physical world is not a figment of our imaginations.

Science tells us that physical is actually just energy! That EVERYTHING is ENERGY! Ever hear of frequency?

Monsoon, this is tiresome. It has been so much fun to get you hung up on symbols! it is so easy too! What are RESULTS? One definition could be "end product of a goal". Maltz also talks about a human who hasnt chosen a goal is still fulfilling goals! The servo mech has NO OTHER OPTION! It is only that now, the goal is dictated by someone else (aka animal instinct - which is not accurate at all, but i dont want to confuse the issue. ok.. why isnt it? Cuz the goals could still be outside the major "life" ones!). And the whole point i made 3 posts ago, the human can, at any point, stop moving towards sex, for example (or any other goal) and start towards education, for example (or any other that they choose). An animal cannot! As much as humans attach human characteristics to animals, it is a fallacy!

Do you understand this now?

Now, i fully understand what your beliefs are! You think that we are physical, and we are all separate. That means, our results dont matter! But, what are results again? Oh right! the ends of goals! SO we all spend our days doing nothing! Thats what makes us all the same! :)

sorry! i have grown exceedingly bored with reexplaining myself 100 times!

Science is, and always has been, a TOOL! It wasnt meant to be "the only way"! It was meant to help us understand things that theology couldnt or more accurately, didnt concern itself with! The power is the same! Like it or not, you are a part of it!

Now, as fun as this has been, i have other stuff to attend to. Have fun misunderstanding and putting up incorrect "facts" in the name of science! Maybe, if you go back and read all the posts i did on this thread, you will see that, not once, did i deviate! I attempted to clarify, but not change the message!

The result of all of this is tied to another thread about internal! There is a very good reason that so few get that concept! They think they are a body! :) sigh. now THEY are after me for giving away too much...

ROFLMAO!!!!
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby Monsoon » Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:15 am

And that is why scientists don't really relish discussing these things with laypeople who, because they have read some populist science book, think they are equipped to debate the subject.

You don't really understand what you have read. That you get bored discussing it is actually a classic sign of this. From a behaviour perspective we seem to have greater freedom of choice in our actions. The keyword is 'seem' because a variety of choices have been noted in other animal species, and they DO choose based on free will between non-essential goals! The fact that we can choose this goal or that goal is really rather irrelevant - except for you it is a convenient smokescreen to hide your unwillingness to learn.

Everything is energy, matter and energy are the same thing, yadda yadda, it's old, man. If you want to replace every time I said 'matter' with 'energy' my argument would still be the same and you would still be in denial. Get over it.

Now, i fully understand what your beliefs are! You think that we are physical, and we are all separate. That means, our results dont matter! But, what are results again? Oh right! the ends of goals! SO we all spend our days doing nothing! Thats what makes us all the same!


You understand nothing. Our bodies exist as the 'matter' function of the stuff that makes the universe. I think you don't actually comprehend the meaning of this concept. You see the words but are not making the right connection. You make the assumption that I think we're all separate and I haven't said or implied that at all. In fact, my understanding of the unity of the universe extends beyond the mere boundaries of us pitiful humans. You are also mixing up a lot of different ideas in a somewhat peurile attempt to make your theory fit. Can't say I am surprised.

All the rest of your argument, and I do mean all of it, is nothing more than juvenile semantics.

Science is, and always has been, a TOOL! It wasnt meant to be "the only way"! It was meant to help us understand things that theology couldnt or more accurately, didnt concern itself with!


You think science was ever 'meant' to do anything? Oh that's just too droll.

My earlier reference to the Westboro baptists is now confirmed.

Well done!
peace and harmony

monsoon
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby Monsoon » Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:18 am

Oh, and you never revealed what your profession is.

Kind of telling in itself, that.

Have a nice day! :D
Last edited by Monsoon on Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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monsoon
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby Josh Young » Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:27 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:An ape has no ability to change what or who they are. They are what they are and will be that way for all time. Are they the same as others? Of course not! But they are all apes, in all their unchanging apeness! AND before you throw a study at me showing "this ape changed", i mean OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL! An animal is an animal because that is all it knows. period.

I respectfully disagree and have taken many college classes in biology.

Humans are animals and their range of behavior is narrow. They cannot change who or what they are. Behavior in humans and other animals is almost identical, dogs for example. However this is very far off topic.

I will point out that a gorilla can be taught sign language and they are interesting, a lot of arguments about distinctions of behavior are not accepted by scientists, many cutting edge scientists note this and would never claim that humans are any more unique than say, a penguin.
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby chh » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:12 pm

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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby caesar » Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:17 am

chh wrote:http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2867#comic :)



Awesome! :D
caesar
 

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