"Traditional Tai Chi"

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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby pete5770 » Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:30 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:Mate, how many shocking movements do you need to jolt the system? I also dont underestimate you! I call it like i see it, and you ask questions then dismiss ALL but those that agree with you or worse, try to give you hints. Stupid mate.. stupid. Why else would you come to a forum? Oh right! Ego recognition! Very taoist of you. Dont get me wrong. I believe there are very few taoist taiji people! Biggest con in martial arts, imo! (now that I have offended the taoists... ask yourself, WHY are you offended? Taoists WOULDnT care!)


Mate, you need "good" taiji. That is it. Learn from Josh (he seems like a reasonable teacher). Learn Dr Yang's form. GIve up the form you are doing cuz it isnt doing you any good. If it was, you would be able to explain taiji classics easily (as taiji without classics is just moving your hands in the air strangely).

You need to have an open mind. I have tried to give you light posts, but it is wasted. Good luck with your hand waving.. or whatever you call it.


Easy big guy. It's only a forum on the Internet. And when did I become a Taoist? Or do I just not know it yet? :oops: :? To be honest me being a Taoist is, well, I'm not even sure what a Taoist is. As for an open mind, I say no, I'd rather have a questioning one. As I recall it was Al Einstien who once said, something to the effect, that anyone can find the answers, but it's the questions that are important.
As for "shocking", what few hops, skips, and jumps that I've seen in Tai Chi would have very little effect on bone density. As an example, pro bike racers tend to lose bone density and they spend hours each day bounching around on very rigid bikes and high pressure tires. Even weight training has little or no effect on bone density.
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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby Josh Young » Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:29 pm

gravitation builds bone density and tendon attachments grow in size and density with force, even gentle force, for this reason a pathologist can tell things about what a person did when they were alive, and bone density is part of that

when your bones do work to hold you up, they become denser to a point, lower the gravity and they decrease

many people are not at optimum density, taijiquan does seem to increase bone density, all bent knee standing postures seem to do this

shocks to the system like with running are actually really bad for the bones and joints, they cause injury and stresses, and who are we kidding, standing 20 minutes in a taiji posture is far more work than an hour of jogging or you aren't doing it right. taijiquan is not a low impact exercise in a traditional sense
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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby Josh Young » Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:06 pm

I began taijiquan with some specific injuries.

I broke my shoulder as a child and was never treated because of poverty, every time I used to raise or rotate my left arm it would make a clicking noise and it would hurt. Taiji cured this, whereas weight training and other external forms of exercise made it worse. Taijiquan made my joint connection looser, removed the pain, the clicking noise ceased.

I broke both of my ankles, at different times while skateboarding. Taijiquan has vastly improved their range of motion and eliminated the pain I used to feel when walking. Again, weight training did not help this but taijiquan did.

I used to have severe hip pain, I used to run a lot as a kid and had to stop from severe pain in my hip caused from the stress of running about 2 miles a day. This caused me intense and severe pain several times a month, until I began taijiquan. When I began this pain slowed my progress, when I would raise my leg it would again make a "clicking" noise in the area close to the inguinal crease (the kua) but after a year of taiji this ceased, my range of motion increased and I found that when the pain struck I could eliminate it with the Golden needle posture. I have not had this severe hip pain for about 3 years now and even a year after starting taiji it struck far less often.

I also had wrist pain from skateboarding injury, this went away with a few months of taijiquan practice. All of these injuries were to bone and cartilage, and taijiquan treated them all.

I have always tended to be somewhat athletic, hiking, skateboarding, biking, weight training etc. Taijiquan has done things for me that none of these other exercises came close to doing. It has put me in better shape than any of them did or even could have. Now I know that none of these things I mention were diseases, and I am not saying that taijiquan cures disease, but it has eliminated so many problems from old injuries that i have had that I know it does things that other exercises cannot do. It is true that it hurt to train, I spent a lot of time sore, my back and legs in particular ached severely for some time. It wasn't nor is it easy or low impact.

it is clear that the emphasis on softness and looseness, on yielding and avoiding anything jarring are at the heart of why taijiquan helped me and why other forms of exercise hurt me. Gentleness is the way to health, however that does not mean the way is easy or does not require hard work.
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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby pete5770 » Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:23 pm

Villicus wrote:Pete, I understand pretty much how you feel and your frustration at how some folks, New Age types, have tried to take control of traditional Tai Chi and morph it into something it was never intended to be. New Agers have been doing this to many disciplines and spiritual practices for over twenty years now. It is a politically correct, cheap emotionalism that the new agers constantly push, but this has no relevance whatsoever with traditional Tai Chi. I think that most of the fantastical claims of Tai Chi are made by these misguided folks that are constantly searching for truth in all the wrong places. What I have discovered of traditional Tai Chi thus far is nothing supernatural or superhuman. It is just common sense based on thousands of years of biomechanical research and practice. That is how I perceive Tai Chi.......just ancient wisdom that is often misunderstood or under appreciated.


+1.... very well put.
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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby pete5770 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:41 pm

Villicus wrote:Pete, I understand pretty much how you feel and your frustration at how some folks, New Age types, have tried to take control of traditional Tai Chi and morph it into something it was never intended to be. New Agers have been doing this to many disciplines and spiritual practices for over twenty years now. It is a politically correct, cheap emotionalism that the new agers constantly push, but this has no relevance whatsoever with traditional Tai Chi. I think that most of the fantastical claims of Tai Chi are made by these misguided folks that are constantly searching for truth in all the wrong places. What I have discovered of traditional Tai Chi thus far is nothing supernatural or superhuman. It is just common sense based on thousands of years of biomechanical research and practice. That is how I perceive Tai Chi.......just ancient wisdom that is often misunderstood or under appreciated.


Very well put.
Maybe I should explain about myself a bit as I do believe a few people get the wrong idea about me. I'm not interested in politics or religion. Both subjects are, quite simply, just plain boring to
me. As a young boy I remember going to church with my parents and the hour that it took seemed a lifetime. I thought I would go crazy sitting there. Today at 63 my opinion has not changed, I'm just as bored by it now as I was then. Nothing about it interests me. Politics are, for me, the same way. Once again, as a child, I remember thinking, while my parents watched the Conventions, that I couldn't imagine a more usless pursuit than this constant jabbering of talking heads. These days I don't vote(never have) because I can't remember every really seeing any difference in those talking heads. Some thing over and over and over. No changes.
In a way it sort of surprises me that Tai Chi holds my interest the way it does, what with all the repetition day in and day out. When I practice Tai Chi I am in a whole other world of questions, ponderances, what ifs and whys and why nots. The questions that it poses for me, or that I pose for it never stop going through my head. Utterly fascinating. I have questioned every square inch of it and even the slightest of position changes and movements and still the questions almost overwhelm me. It's been this way since I started about 40 years ago. Who can stop doing something when there are so many questions, and, on occasion, an answer or two, but these only bring up more questons. I'm also this way about cycling, and to some extent the violin.
Anal? OCD? Maybe? Then again I'm really glad I'm that way about Tai Chi, cycling, fiddling and NOT about religion or politics.
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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby Dvivid » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:02 am

We shouldn't argue so much in this forum, and we shouldn't insult masters like Erle who have done so much to promote Chinese martial arts.

It is fine to focus on the purely mechanical aspects of tai chi or to focus on the moving meditation aspect, depending upon who you are and what your goals are. But don't say that your area of focus is all there is to the art. Sometimes Christians have a problem with the concept of Qi, but it is unfair for them try to force that opinion on others, and create a revisionist view of tai chi, without energy.

It is not a matter of opinion that Tai Chi and Qigong are disciplines designed first and foremost around the concept of developing human energetic circulation.

It is true that there has been a lot of new age promotion of the arts, with poor understanding of the theory, but that is just par for the course with any new discipline in America. Yoga first arrived in a bastardized way, and slowly people have traced back the roots and realize the asanas are only a small part of traditional practice.

Tai Chi came to the USA as a health practice, and slowly we have learned the energetic and martial theory and poetry from the classics.

The definition of internal arts is that the practitioner develops his/her own internal circulation to support the physical body more than the average person. Whenever one begins talking about energy, the two camps start blithering their pro/con opinions. This is largely based in a lack of understanding. Whatever you want to call the energy in your cells is irrelevant. Energy exists in your body, and if you develop it, your health can improve.

Bones are piezoelectric, meaning that when they are stressed, energy circulates. Circulation is required for the bones to develop and to maintain their healthy function. Read more research: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0688069711/
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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby pete5770 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:02 pm

Dvivid wrote:We shouldn't argue so much in this forum,

It is not a matter of opinion that Tai Chi and Qigong are disciplines designed first and foremost around the concept of developing human energetic circulation.



"Forum" - a medium for public debate, as a magazine;

I thought Tai Chi was a martial art "first and foremost" but I'm sure I'm
wrong as that is my "opinion" and "it's not a matter of...." that.

I'm trying hard to get a mental picture of the creator / creators of Tai Chi, all those centuries ago, sitting around talking about "the concept of developing human energetic circulation". That really sounds born in America.
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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby Dvivid » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:43 am

I assume most in this discussion are not Chinese. You may also not have a traditional Chinese teacher, as we do at YMAA. We're discussing this subject in an English forum with modern language. You should know, it is culturally ignorant to suggest that Tai Chi is not what Chinese culture says it is. You and I don't get to decide that they were wrong and create a revisionist version of their art. At least be respectful of their traditions and understand the subject before you try and tear it apart, which doesn't help anyone.

Tai Chi Chuan was created as a soft-style internal martial art, 'first and foremost'. In all internal martial arts, by definition, the body is kept as soft as possible at all times, in order to allow the energy (qi) circulation to be as abundant as possible. Muscular tension stagnates qi circulation.

Each strike in tai chi chuan is a point-strike. This means you are hitting a vital acupuncture cavity with penetrating power using a whipping movement. In internal arts, you develop your body's energy to the degree that you are moving with Qi-Li, muscles supported with extra energy. The word 'jing' (or jin) refers to emitting power in internal arts. 'Jing' is constructed of the characters Qi-Li.

If you remove the above concepts from your practice, it is no longer Tai Chi. This unfortunately is the cases in many classes today.

Read and learn: http://ymaa.com/articles/generating-jin

Taiji quan is "the fist-style of taiji", literally "grand-ultimate fist". Taiji philosophy has existed for 4,000 years. It is based on refining your body's energy and your moral character. You cannot remove the Taiji concept from Taijiquan, and still call it Taiji.

Yes, we should debate. No, we should not be so negative about things we clearly don't understand.

Your original point in posting this I assume was to state that you believe traditional tai chi has nothing to do with energy, and does not involve healing. If you have a good intention in continuing this thread, now would be a good time to discuss it. We don't need more bad intentions.
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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby pete5770 » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:18 am

Dvivid wrote:
Yes, we should debate. No, we should not be so negative about things we clearly don't understand.



You're the moderator. Do what you will. This forum will be a pretty boring place if all that's allowed is "praise Tai Chi" type of stuff. Remember, it's not your problem if I don't believe something, nor is it my problem if you do. I can have opinions about things and so can you, although it looks as if mine are not to be allowed much longer. A lot of talk about 3000 or 4000
years ago and tradition. If you somehow could see Tai Chi and Qigong from 4000 years ago you wouldn't have a clue as to what was happening. And by the way where is this 3000 and 4000 coming from? In any case I will admit that we stand on these peoples shoulders, as we do in any endeavor. What I won't buy is that they knew everything and all of it was correct, no mistakes, and that what was passed down has never been misquoted, read wrong, translated badly, or that anyone, today, knows the intent with which these things were said and done. As for tradition, well, it's all fine and good, if all you want is to do, and think, the same thing over and over.
No, question everything. Answers are the easy part. Anyone can find answers, but the questions, now that's the tough part. Knowing what to ask is what moves the world forward.
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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby Dvivid » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:41 am

Yes, question everything. All ancient people were not flawless immortal masters, we agree on that.

But if you don't understand what an internal martial art is, you probably shouldn't be arguing in public about it. We welcome your intelligent input whenever you're ready to step up to the plate.

This forum exists to promote and preserve traditional martial arts, and you shouldn't expect a great deal of respect if your intentions are the opposite. You're not really saying anything constructive. You're just repeating vague argumentative points. Let's discuss evidence rather than opinions.

These modern health studies are the tip of the iceberg. http://nccam.nih.gov/health/taichi
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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby pete5770 » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:05 pm

Dvivid wrote:Yes, question everything.

But if you don't understand what an internal martial art is, you probably shouldn't be arguing in public about it. We welcome your intelligent input whenever you're ready to step up to the plate.



My curiosity is somewhat boundless so, yes, I question everything.

As for not understanding Tai Chi. I understand that Tai Chi is bound by the laws of Physics as are most things. Call it internal or whatever, it is still bound by Physics.

That I don't believe in Qigong is a direct result of my not buying into ESP, witchcraft, faith healing, etc. Like I have said before, if I say I can teach you levitation are you going to believe me or will you require proof? Will I have to float in front of you or will you simply jump on board?
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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby caesar » Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:59 pm

People have been trying to explain to you how Qi Gong doesn't go against the laws of physics. Others have also copy pasted studies and researches for you to read, about how science nowadays explains terms relating to qi gong. But it seems you haven't really had the motivation to read those...at least you haven't much commented on them...although you're asking for proof all the time.

I'm glad science is getting closer to peoples's experiences in Qi Gong and other eastern arts. In some places, like in Finland, the physiotherapists are been taught an own branch of acupuncture nowadays...which is developed on the basis of the Chinese teachings.
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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby pete5770 » Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:30 pm

caesar wrote:People have been trying to explain to you how Qi Gong doesn't go against the laws of physics. Others have also copy pasted studies and researches for you to read, about how science nowadays explains terms relating to qi gong. But it seems you haven't really had the motivation to read those...at least you haven't much commented on them...although you're asking for proof all the time.

I'm glad science is getting closer to peoples's experiences in Qi Gong and other eastern arts. In some places, like in Finland, the physiotherapists are been taught an own branch of acupuncture nowadays...which is developed on the basis of the Chinese teachings.


You're absolutley right. I don't have the motivation to read them. Much like I don't have the motivation to follow politics. It bores me. Even though I know less than most people about Qigong I just don't believe it. I also don't spend much time reading about Voodoo, witchcraft, levitation, etc. All for the same reason. I don't believe in them. You, however, may believe in whatever you like but don't worry about me. I doing fine. By the way, since I mentioned levitation(again), is there anyone out there who simply takes my word for it that I can do it, and teach it to you? Anyone? Or would you require proof and / or a demonstration before you believed? Or would you be like YOU want me to be and just accept it as true and jump on the wagon with no questions? Wouldn't you question me? :? :?
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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby wpgtaiji » Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:24 pm

pete5770 wrote: This forum will be a pretty boring place if all that's allowed is "praise Tai Chi" type of stuff. Remember, it's not your problem if I don't believe something, nor is it my problem if you do. I

It will never be boring as long as I am around ;P

Again, mate, it has nothing to do with YOU and more about what you are teaching your students or new people. I can just see it, "Yeah, i do this tai chi stuff. People say it does all this stuff, but in 40 years of work, i havent become superman or anything", what are you saying to people? It affects everyone.

What you see here are people concerned about the ART, not the individual. The perpetuation of correct art. At least that is what I see...
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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby pete5770 » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:28 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:
pete5770 wrote: This forum will be a pretty boring place if all that's allowed is "praise Tai Chi" type of stuff. Remember, it's not your problem if I don't believe something, nor is it my problem if you do. I


Again, mate, it has nothing to do with YOU and more about what you are teaching your students or new people. I can just see it, "Yeah, i do this tai chi stuff. People say it does all this stuff, but in 40 years of work, i havent become superman or anything", what are you saying to people?



Well, "I haven't become Superman or anything". Truer words were never spoken. Do you think you've become something more than a human being?
I'm still waiting for an answer from anyone who will take levitation lessons from me without seeing me levitate myself first. Not sure who said it but "Trust, then verify." Sounds like fine advice to me.
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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby wpgtaiji » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:18 pm

pete5770 wrote:Well, "I haven't become Superman or anything". Truer words were never spoken. Do you think you've become something more than a human being?
I'm still waiting for an answer from anyone who will take levitation lessons from me without seeing me levitate myself first. Not sure who said it but "Trust, then verify." Sounds like fine advice to me.

Mate, i didnt mean you become superman! I meant that THAT is what people THINK will happen! I have read that in the Boxer rebellion, boxers, thinking the iron bell qigong would stand up to bullets charged against guns. Saddly, they were mistaken. people were fooled THEN as they are NOW!

What you DO become is more of who you are, nothing more. You become more human. Qigong is a way to balance yin and yang energies in the body. Many people never get results because they spend time doing moving qigongs before they ever learned to stand still. Moving qigongs are nice to do, but without the core principles, are about as useless as bailing an ocean liner using a teaspoon.

The AMAZING things are the things we take for granted. My teacher pointed out that, he answers the phone (this was before caller id), and just said the person's name who was calling. Like you call me, and I answer" Hello Pete", before you can even say anything. This is one simple example.

I have had people come around me just to be, as have others from our school. This is special! Healing energy! Are these people cured? NO!! That is NOT the point of it. Healing is something your BODY does for itself. Healing energy is a way of being, of calm that people like to be around. If you like, a attitude of acceptance. It is literally, a balancing of yin and yang energy in enough quantitiy, that others who enter the area, their energies balance. That is healing at a base level. Do miraculous things happen? Is someone who is very stressed suddenly (over a period of a few minutes) relaxes, isnt that a miracle? Now that body is in balance, it can help itself heal.

Mate, do I have proof? NO! Not scientific anyway! All I know is, when i first met my wife, when ever I was around her, I felt a need to do A LOT more qigong and taiji to recharge! This went on for a good month or so. After that is slowed down greatly. What happened? My wife has allergies. One is to bananas, which is quite serious, or should i say was serious. After a few months together, i get a call from her at work and she tells me that she is eating a banana. I was in shock and of course, alittle scared (didnt want her to die). She told me everything was fine and that she felt great. Did I heal her? NO! I believe that being balanced allowed her body to be in balance, which allowed things to pass from her.

Scientifically, I have written before that qi is merely bioelectric energy. Take a charged body and place it next to an identical body, uncharged. What happens over time? They both charge. My physics is most probably off (its been 20 years since university), but the idea is correct. This is how we heal others. Not laying on hands or that silliness. Just being balanced. That is what GOOD qigong gives. And that is all we can ever ask for. It IS a miracle... dont look for big things. Its the small ones that indicate the greatness. The big ones are usually faked

peace
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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby Dvivid » Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:29 am

Of course, everyone in this discussion realizes that Dr. Yang (the Y in YMAA) has a PhD in physics.

He is a well-known author because he has spent 40+ years researching and publishing on the topic of qigong and how the ancient principles of qi theory fits into modern physics. If you read the above-mentioned books and research the topic yourself, you will be less confused.
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