"Traditional Tai Chi"

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"Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby pete5770 » Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:52 pm

Over the years I have been approached by many, many prospective students wanting to learn "traditional Tai Chi". These were and are the usual students we all know. They have no knowledge of the art other than what some pamphlet told them. Most, if not all, are looking
at Tai Chi as "easy" and many view Tai Chi as a sort of "cosmic art"(if you will). They all have either high blood pressure, diabetes, high colesteral, poor balance, or some other maladay that they were told Tai Chi would help. I think the Tai Chi world, and instructors in particular, do themselves and others a huge diservice by promoting Tai Chi as some cure all. Now I know that these kind of promises help sell lesson time, but don't we all know that most of these people are going to benefit a whole lot more if they diet and lose 50 pounds? Walking around on a gym floor 2 or 3 times a week while doing Tai Chi poorly is not going to help anyone. At best, Tai Chi at this stage is barely excercise at all. They would be better served by wallking briskly at the park, on a daily basis for an hour or so. In any case these people would not stand a chance in a "traditional" Tai Chi class. They are usually way out of shape and most likely never really been exposed to real excercise. I picture traditional Tai Chi of, oh say 2 centuries ago, as something that even the strongest of men could fail at. So, let's try to tone it down a bit with all the claims
of tradition and health benefits. It's basically lying to people and serves no good purpose.
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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby Josh Young » Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:56 pm

J Cardiovasc Nurs. 2004 Jan-Feb;19(1):48-57.
Effectiveness of Tai Chi exercise in improving aerobic capacity: a meta-analysis.
Taylor-Piliae RE, Froelicher ES.

BMC Complementary and Alternative Medicine 2010, 10:23 doi:10.1186/1472-6882-10-23
Published: 21 May 2010
Tai Chi on psychological well-being: systematic review and meta-analysis
Chenchen Wang, Raveendhara Bannuru, Judith Ramel, Bruce Kupelnick, Tammy Scott and Christopher H Schmid

This site links to refferences of many studies showing so many health effects for taiji that there isn't time or space to list them all here:

http://www.taichiresearch.com/

And Wu Tunan in his writings wrote the following:
Yang Luchan was originally an assistant in a Traditional Chinese Medicine pharmacy called Taihetang in Nanguan in Yongnian county, because he had piji (seems like some sort of disease causing swelling of the abdomen), he went to Chenjiagou with Li Bokui to learn taijiquan from Chen Changxing. His health improved, he achieved a very good level of skill, the two of them both returned to Yongnian county...

Translation by David Lenkovitzki et al

Even the founder of Modern Taijiquan took advantage of the health benefits.

It is shown by many studies that the less martial and less traditional practices of taijiquan are still very healthy, though the greatest health benefits are linked to traditional practice, which is not easy and is physically demanding.

I would not call it a cure all either, but it is kind of amazing.
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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby wpgtaiji » Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:47 pm

Josh Young wrote:
wpgtaiji wrote: If what you say is true, then modern taiji (including your art) is all BS because today, it is all about healing!

That is incorrect, it is not about healing, it can help maintain health, but it is not a cure or treatment for disease. However the art i was taught was not about healing, it was and is a martial art and no claim is made that it will cure or treat any illness. There are spiritual aspects to it relating to the 13 postures and their true meanings as well, but the emphasis is totally martial.

If you claimed the art was about maintaining health i could agree, but the idea that it is about healing is BS, just like you say.
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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby Josh Young » Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:55 pm

Excellent point Gord!
You are right to point out that despite having health benefits it does not cure illness and is not healing. Practicing it can help maintain and increase health, a healthy body is better at healing itself.

Note that in the links provided there is no claim made that taijiuan cures any form of illness.
Only that it is healthy and there are proven health benefits for body and mind.

For example there is the study about people with HIV/AIDS, it improved their health but did not cure their disease.

I agree with the original posters comment as follows:
I think the Tai Chi world, and instructors in particular, do themselves and others a huge diservice by promoting Tai Chi as some cure all.


It is by no means a cure, at all.
Health benefits, certainly.

Several taiji masters of the past actually died of diseases they caught.
If taiji could cure such diseases, or heal the damage they cause, then this would not have the case.
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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby Josh Young » Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:13 pm

If anyone knows of any cases where Tai Chi cured some disease, Herpes, Aids, Diabetes or Syphilis for example please let me know.

My teacher uses his tai chi to maintain a genetic condition, a genetic disease, sadly it does not cure him of this disease.

I have also seen people who practice (or claim to practice) Tai Chi and are clearly not healthy or in good shape. If you are an alcoholic with an eating disorder taijiquan will not fix that, for example.

Then again I have seen others who are in great shape because of the art and because they take good care of themselves in terms of diet and habits. In some people it even seems to slow the aging process.
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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby wpgtaiji » Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:24 pm

Josh Young wrote:Excellent point JOSH!

Josh, it wasnt my point! It was YOURS! Why would anyone be defensive or have to explain a point they already made? I find this interesting... I agree with you. I add comments that you did earlier and am still the bad guy!

And no, taiji is not a cure all. http://www.taijiworld.com/tai-chi-and-qigong.html I am not good at this, so there you go! An article written by a man who was DIABETIC! Maybe, in the health aspects of taiji, we could start there... if he was still alive, he could have helped answer your questions too. It would have been as simple as an email. That was yesterday...
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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby Josh Young » Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:27 am

I add comments that you did earlier and am still the bad guy!

I don't know why you think that you are a bad guy.
I like that you added my earlier comments.
Thanks!

I've emailed Erle a few times while he was alive, he answered most of my questions, some he simply refused to answer at all... (like if he ever trained with Chen Pan Ling, he never confirmed nor denied it)
He was really nice, we got along fine and he even told me to pick any 2 dvds I wanted and he would send them to me free! (I didn't choose any but thought it was nice of him)

He did warn me that some of his followers were fanatical!! Told me that he liked me though.
:wink:

I know he used taiji/qigong to help maintain his health because of his diabetes.
Didn't cure him but it sure helped him maintain a better state of health!
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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby pete5770 » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:49 pm

Josh Young wrote:J Cardiovasc Nurs. 2004 Jan-Feb;19(1):48-57.
Effectiveness of Tai Chi exercise in improving aerobic capacity: a meta-analysis.
Taylor-Piliae RE, Froelicher ES.

BMC Complementary and Alternative Medicine 2010, 10:23 doi:10.1186/1472-6882-10-23
Published: 21 May 2010
Tai Chi on psychological well-being: systematic review and meta-analysis
Chenchen Wang, Raveendhara Bannuru, Judith Ramel, Bruce Kupelnick, Tammy Scott and Christopher H Schmid

This site links to refferences of many studies showing so many health effects for taiji that there isn't time or space to list them all here:

http://www.taichiresearch.com/

And Wu Tunan in his writings wrote the following:
Yang Luchan was originally an assistant in a Traditional Chinese Medicine pharmacy called Taihetang in Nanguan in Yongnian county, because he had piji (seems like some sort of disease causing swelling of the abdomen), he went to Chenjiagou with Li Bokui to learn taijiquan from Chen Changxing. His health improved, he achieved a very good level of skill, the two of them both returned to Yongnian county...

Translation by David Lenkovitzki et al

Even the founder of Modern Taijiquan took advantage of the health benefits.

It is shown by many studies that the less martial and less traditional practices of taijiquan are still very healthy, though the greatest health benefits are linked to traditional practice, which is not easy and is physically demanding.

I would not call it a cure all either, but it is kind of amazing.


I'm going to stick to my guns and go as far as saying that Tai Chi, as practiced in most classes today, has very, very little exercise involved and therefore very little heath improvement or benefit will be noticed. It's just not "physically demanding" enough to really show results. In fact,
I have heard instructors call it "lazy man's exercise" "easy". One person in particular even tells students "if it hurts, don't do it". Makes me wonder how anyone with that kind of thinking can push Tai Chi off as exercise WITH health benefits. Problem is you see this kind of thing all over
the publications of the "Health" industry. Control your diabetes with Tai Chi. Pure BS. Control you diabetes with diet, weight loss, drugs, and vigorous exercise. This is not to say that Tai Chi can't be "vigorous" but from what I've seen these days that's not happening. I'm not even sure that the people seeking out Tai Chi really have much interest, if any, in vigorous exercise. Most of them seem to be looking for something "easy" with big results. Not gonna happen.
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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby Josh Young » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:57 pm

Do you actually do taijiquan?

How much experience do you have with it?
Tai Chi, as practiced in most classes today, has very, very little exercise involved


Are you aware of the studies of health benefits of meditation?
There are quite a few, and meditation involves no exercise.

therefore very little heath improvement or benefit will be noticed. It's just not "physically demanding" enough to really show results.


So you are making the claim that any health benefits from taiji come from the exercise aspect of it?

I don't think this is a valid claim at all, actually a lot of high impact exercises totally lack the same type of health benefits proven for taiji (and in many cases for meditation) in numerous studies.
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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby Josh Young » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:16 pm

Now in looking at the benefits proven for meditation, clearly they are distinct from exercise related benefits
Here is a list of stuff that meditation can do according to scientific study:
· Greater Orderliness of Brain Functioning
· Improved Ability to Focus
· Increased Creativity
· Deeper Level of Relaxation
· Improved Perception and Memory
· Development of Intelligence
· Natural Change in Breathing
· Decrease in Stress Hormone
· Lower Blood Pressure
· Reversal of Aging Process
· Reduced Need for Medical Care
· Reduction in Cholesterol
· Increased Self-Actualization
· Increased Strength of Self-Concept
· Decreased Cigarette, Alcohol, and Drug Abuse
· Increased Productivity
· Improved Relations at Work
· Increased Relaxation and Decreased Stress
· Improved Health and More Positive Health Habits


This is also only with daily meditation over years.

Some studies of Taiji show the same thing, it is reasonable to expect that if it is done in a low impact way then one should not expect much more than these type of effects.

Clearly low impact taiji is good for the mind and well being, but it isn't going to yield the best health effect type results.

The type of taijiquan I was taught will leave you sore, it will make you sweat. It is not easy.
I think this type has more health benefits than the common light impact taiji that is so widespread, also the light impact type is useless for martial purposes.

That is to say (as Erle M. stated many times) that the form of taijiquan that is the most healthy is also that which is the most martial.

So I guess I agree with the idea that taiji as is common is not really that great for health, and when it is, it is going to be in regard to mental health more than anything else.
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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby pete5770 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:34 pm

[quote="Josh Young"]Do you actually do taijiquan?

How much experience do you have with it?


I'm 63 years old and have done Tai Chi pretty much daily for 40 years. I still enjoy it today as much as I did many years ago(It makes me think-if that makes any sense). In any case, over the years, I've had skin cancer, mesothelioma, 3 vertebrae in my neck fused together because of blown out disks, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, diabetes, and a few other maladays that escape me at the moment. Now, I don't blame Tai Chi for causing any of this, nor do I credit Tai Chi with curing any of it. I do credit Doctors, Surgeons, todays medicine, diet, weight loss, and VIGOROUS exercise as the reason I'm still around and enjoying a very active life. This is not to say that my Tai Chi is not vigorous. Over the years I have strove to get lower and lower with the form and my leg strength reflects that. Sadly it would seem that many people today want whatever is quick and easy, with little effort, yet yeilding BIG results(and a flat tummy). If I were to pick one thing that tops my list of things to do for good health it would be to keep your weight where it should be. If you can manage that you're well on your way and exercise, of any kind, is icing on the cake.
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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby Villicus » Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:02 pm

I have practiced Tai Chi, Yang style, for just under a year. I have already seen many health benefits. I have been diagnosed with Gulf War Illness which is multi-symptomatic and generally makes life a living hell, esp. when doctors can't do anything about it except to push more meds which do not work. Before Tai Chi I had to do very vigorous workouts to keep the whole body pain away. Since I have started Tai Chi I have very little pain, major mood improvement, and increased memory and a much lower stress level. Also my cholesterol dropped over 60 points and is now in the normal range.
My testosterone levels are rising and my interocular eye pressure has normalized. Almost every facet of my health is improving and my doctors are surprised to say the least. I have not done anything differently since starting Tai Chi so I believe even the FBI would call that a clue. I learned the short form first and am now learning the long form and expect even more surprises health wise, but the biggest benefit by far is an intense feeling of peace which I haven't felt in a very long time. It's rather ironic to me that after a lifetime of fighting as a Marine on the battlefield and later a 17 year law enforcement career fighting on the streets that learning a martial art has brought me so much peace.
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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby pete5770 » Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:18 pm

Villicus wrote:......... It's rather ironic to me that after a lifetime of fighting as a Marine on the battlefield and later a 17 year law enforcement career fighting on the streets that learning a martial art has brought me so much peace.



Perhaps it is partly because you're NOT a Marine or in law enforcement and your stress levels are a whole lot less that you're starting to feel this "peace". Nothing like being free from the daily "grind" to improve your attitude. I know it helped me.
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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby Villicus » Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:24 am

I thought of that too, but I left the Marine Corps in 1993 and have been out of law enforcement for over ten years. The only reason for the change I feel has to be Tai Chi. Reading Dr. Yang's books has helped me to understand many things related to the internal arts and he does a wonderful job of explaining eastern concepts and theories to the western mind. I can see how someone who knows nothing of what we do would sometimes come away thinking that some things are rather extraordinary, but I see that it is all just very practical and common sense.
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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby Dvivid » Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:22 am

This is not a black or white issue. Everyone is different, so everyone gets different benefits from tai chi practice. Regarding tai chi as a healing art: traditional tai chi is a Daoist form of moving meditation. The first part of the form is a warm up, the 2nd part makes you sweat and is designed to manifest your energy to the maximum, the 3rd part is a cool down. Of course, it is exercise, so it has many health benefits like increased muscle mass and bone density and dozens of others. But it is also moving meditation, or qigong. After any qigong practice, you must then allow your energy to gather in your center to be conserved. That's the Gong in Qi Gong. The most important factor which will determine what you get out of this whole-body exercise is your MIND.

Read about epigenetics and psychoneuroimmunology. They basically tell us that your mind controls your matter. Your mind determines which genes are expressed and whether or not you get sick. So, you can do tai chi for 50 years and be very healthy or very sick, depending upon the state of your mind, not only during the practice but all day long.

Of course, many other factors are involved:
Nutrition: do you eat pesticides, artificial colors and preservatives? Do you get all the nutrition, minerals, vitamins, healthy fats that your body needs for optimal cell replacement?

Stress: do you internalize stress? Do you relax deeply and sincerely for one hour a day? Two hours a day? Zero hours per day?

Stagnation: many diseases are caused by stagnation in the body. Is your circulation healthy and abundant, or are you energetically too Yin or Yang? Over the long term, a lack of balance in your energy will cause health problems.

Hormones: do you make efforts to maintain healthy hormone levels? The hormones play a role in so many of your body's functions, everything from metabolism to bone density. In many places that "Traditional" tai chi was practiced, oftentimes internal cultivation, aka qigong, was commonly practiced as well. Although they did not know what hormones were, the ancients described clearly that the 'essence' must be conserved. Hormones are a catalyst in the body's metabolization of food/fat into energy (Qi). Healthy hormone levels improve your body's function, vitality, longevity, and your daily quality of life.

It is a complex issue with many factors. Two people in the same exact tai chi health study will have diffrent results, based on a multitude of factors.

Many of these tai chi health NIH studies are done in Boston, and several have been designed by Ramel Rones, a disciple of Dr Yang since the 1980s.
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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby pete5770 » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:50 pm

Dvivid wrote:.......health benefits like increased muscle mass and bone density and dozens of others.

It is a complex issue with many factors. Two people in the same exact tai chi health study will have diffrent results, based on a multitude of factors.



I might go along with an increase in muscle mass among people who are sedentary and then do Tai Chi(or any excerise for that matter) but disagree strongly in your claim of bone density increases. As I recall most studies show that shocks or jolts to the system(i.e. running) are pretty much the only things that will result in bone density increases.
I will agree with your statement about health and how it's a complex issue with a "multitude of factors".
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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby wpgtaiji » Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:23 pm

pete, i say this with all the sincerity I can muster: mate, you need a new teacher AND a new taiji style. You say you have done it for 40 years? I dont buy it. Maybe 1 year at most, or worse, 1 year 40 times...

There are indeed taiji styles that do have shocking movements to build the bones. There are teachers who can teach the classics simply and with zero mystery.

Your attitude seems to be "since I havent done it, it cant be done". If it was towards "empty force" you would have a point, but you question Classic teachings! Mate, I pray that you find a new style that will give you what you desparately seek: understanding.
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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby pete5770 » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:07 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:pete, i say this with all the sincerity I can muster: mate, you need a new teacher AND a new taiji style. You say you have done it for 40 years? I dont buy it. Maybe 1 year at most, or worse, 1 year 40 times...

There are indeed taiji styles that do have shocking movements to build the bones. There are teachers who can teach the classics simply and with zero mystery.

Your attitude seems to be "since I havent done it, it cant be done". If it was towards "empty force" you would have a point, but you question Classic teachings! Mate, I pray that you find a new style that will give you what you desparately seek: understanding.



I think you underestimate me, but that's no big deal.
As for "shocking movements". While you may be correct that some styles MAY have a FEW "shocking movements" in them, this is certainly not the Tai Chi that is taught these days.
As for "....question Classic teachings!" Are you saying that you blindly believe anything that "the Ancients say...."? Or that I should not or have no right to question these teachings or the lack thereof? You sound like a reasonable man so I'm going to assume that you also question what is presented to you. I for one don't buy into fables, paranormal happenings, witchcraft, claims of super powers, monsters, psychics, cure alls, aliens, area 51, and various other crazy claims and I doubt you do either. I tend to question and challenge everything. It's not a bad way to go through life. I want to know how things work. Although, in thinking about it, I do have one sort of strangeness about me. i believe wind chimes ward off evil spirts, but am at a loss to say why I feel that way.
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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby wpgtaiji » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:49 pm

Mate, how many shocking movements do you need to jolt the system? I also dont underestimate you! I call it like i see it, and you ask questions then dismiss ALL but those that agree with you or worse, try to give you hints. Stupid mate.. stupid. Why else would you come to a forum? Oh right! Ego recognition! Very taoist of you. Dont get me wrong. I believe there are very few taoist taiji people! Biggest con in martial arts, imo! (now that I have offended the taoists... ask yourself, WHY are you offended? Taoists WOULDnT care!)


Mate, you need "good" taiji. That is it. Learn from Josh (he seems like a reasonable teacher). Learn Dr Yang's form. GIve up the form you are doing cuz it isnt doing you any good. If it was, you would be able to explain taiji classics easily (as taiji without classics is just moving your hands in the air strangely).

You need to have an open mind. I have tried to give you light posts, but it is wasted. Good luck with your hand waving.. or whatever you call it.
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Re: "Traditional Tai Chi"

Postby Villicus » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:49 pm

Pete, I understand pretty much how you feel and your frustration at how some folks, New Age types, have tried to take control of traditional Tai Chi and morph it into something it was never intended to be. New Agers have been doing this to many disciplines and spiritual practices for over twenty years now. It is a politically correct, cheap emotionalism that the new agers constantly push, but this has no relevance whatsoever with traditional Tai Chi. I think that most of the fantastical claims of Tai Chi are made by these misguided folks that are constantly searching for truth in all the wrong places. What I have discovered of traditional Tai Chi thus far is nothing supernatural or superhuman. It is just common sense based on thousands of years of biomechanical research and practice. That is how I perceive Tai Chi.......just ancient wisdom that is often misunderstood or under appreciated.
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