How Practicable Is Dim Mak?

[Tarandus]

Given the choice between a simple manoeuvre to neutralise an opponent by conventional means, or a pressure point strike, which would you choose? How practicable is Dim Mak in a rapid combat situation? This question might be answered by reference to a) training and b) application. Turning to training first, the traditional methods from what I know, involve firstly, striking marked pressure points on a fixed dummy; secondly, striking marked pressure points on a moving dummy; thirdly, striking pressure points on a stationary clothed dummy; thirdly, striking pressure points on a moving clothed dummy. Well, all well and good, as far as the first and second stages are concerned. But what about striking pressure points when the dummy is clothed - either stationary, or even more difficult, moving? This training was developed hundreds of years ago - supposedly - but of course, in those days, there were no such things as electrodes which could be attached to the fixed or moving dummy's body to indicate when a 'hit' was successful - unlike modern fencing, for instance, where the contestants' bodies are wired up to indicate 'touches' which are too fast to be seen by the naked eye. So, logically, how on earth could Dim Mak really have been trained against a clothed dummy - and let alone a real, clothed human being - in the absence of these electronic aids? Without trying to sound too controversial - although I realise I will be - I would submit that this sort of training is a fantasy. How can you train against a stationary or moving clothed dummy with accuracy on very narrowly defined pressure points when there is no way of verifying the accuracy of the attacks with reference to recorded results? The idea seems to me absurd, and frankly, with the risk of incurring the ire of some, I would dismiss it as a fiction. Turning now to the use of Dim Mak in combat situations in the street, I hope I have already observed that the training supposedly involved in its successful execution against clothed bodies is an absurdity -especially in the case of moving bodies. Well, if it can't be trained in a moving situation, against a clothed target, with verifiable results, then how on earth can it be applied in a 'real life' situation? Fair enough, in most cases, the face and hands, as well as the wrists, and (in hot weather) the forearms, will present themselves as clear targets as they will not be covered by clothing. Therefore, of all the pressure points, these will most likely appeal to those who wish to resort to Dim Mak in a combat situation. Particularly in the wrist, for instance - and elswhere - there are clusters of points which mean that accuracy is not at so much of a premium, since if you miss one point,you might well strike another, and the same of course goes for the central bodyline meridians which are studded with points. But in a rapidly moving combat situation, possibly on the street and involving a potentially life and death result, I would venture to suggest that a recourse to pressure point strikes without anything else in ones armoury, is an enormously risky strategy, fraught in the extreme with the serious possibility of missing the target and being caught off balance in the process, with the equally serious risk of a successful counterattack. In addition, there are said to be three basic levels of pressure point strikes: 1) stuns 2) disabling strikes and 3) death strikes. the stuns are said to involve a single pressure point strike, the disabling strikes, three, and the death strikes, five - though of course, some single strikes can cause death. But to concentrate on these three categories: suppose in a moving combat situation one has at best a 50% chance of striking a pressure point accurately, particulary against a moving target. In that case, one has a 50% chance of stunning the opponent, a 50% to the power of three, i.e. 12.5% of disabling him, and a 6.25% chance of killing him. To me, none of these seem very good odds. I don't know Shaolin or any of its variant forms -I only have some knowledge of Tai Chi - but personally, I would rather trust in various Tai Chi counterstrike moves, with or without internal energy, than Dim Mak - simply because the targets are larger and there is less room for error with techniques where pinpoint accuracy is not required. After all, against a rapidly moving target, why put all your trust in striking a tiny pressure point when you can more easily, with a lot less accuracy, break an opponent's foot, break his arm, dislocate his shouldder, fracture his jaw or give him a whiplash injury to his neck? To say nothing of a sharp punch to his testicles which will ensure he will be prevented in the future from breeding, and transmitting his genes to other aggressive psychopaths in his own image? Well, of course, one can always try to rely on these types of 'conventional' ripostes generally, but also aim for a pressure point at the same time, provided the risk of inaccuracy is borne in mind. Funnily enough, Yang Zhen Duo, the youngest son of Yang Cheng Fu, who is still alive, and teaching and practising Tai Chi, claimed in an interview with him that I read a while back, that he didn't know Dim Mak and that it had no part in Tai Chi, which is concerned with unbalancing an opponent and 'using four ounces to defeat one hundred pounds'. I believe in Dim Mak, personally. But maybe it is only really useful for assassins, who can rely on their victims being asleep or otherwise quiescent. Any thoughts? Kind regards, T.

[E. Hinds]

While I have no knowledge of how it was trained with a clothed dummy, I can take a few guesses. For a wooden dummy, holes could be drilled and filly with something soft or left empty. The striker would be able to feel if they were accurate or not. Alternatively, the layer just under the clothes could have been made of something breakable like small bamboo shoots. After striking, the clothes could be removed to check where this layer was damaged. Keep in mind I am NOT, absolutely NOT saying that this is how it was done. I am saying that these are two possible ways of training this skill. I have absolutely no knowledge of whether or not the training was done this way, or whether it was done at all. Pure conjecture.

I will add that while I myself am dubious about the real possibilities of Dim Mak (Dian Mai, cavity strike, whatever you want to call it), I have seen some very amazing displays of accuracy. Despite not having done an extraordinary amount of accuracy training, I occasionally surprise myself by quickly catching a flying object without thinking. Not world shaking, but the ability to catch a small marble-sized object flying very fast isn't all that far removed from the kind of accuracy needed to strike cavities on a resisting opponent, to a lesser degree. Chris Fazzio once told me a story about a teacher at headquarters (I don't remember exactly who it was) who, while giving a lecture on how important it is to develop a pinpoint awareness of the location and direction of hain sword point, thrust his sword through the bottom link of a chain without looking directly at it. One of Master Yang's favorite techniques (he's never said it is, but I've seen him do it many times) is to pull an opponent's hand towards him while pressing with his fingers in "sword hand" (forefinger and middle finger together pointing straight, little and ring finger curled in and touching thumb) on the hollow at the base of the throat. He's done this to me (lightly pressing of course) in a casual manner in the middle of talking with way too much speed for me to block. So while I personally don't think "deadly accuracy" and cavity strikes deserve to be first priority for most practitioners, there are some amazing things that can be achieved through studious practice, and if you ignore all th "one-touch knockout" guys who are usually completely worthless there is real cavity strike training out there that is usable.

[Tarandus]

Thanks, Eric, for your reply. I hadn't thought about the possibility of these methods you suggest, of checking for the accuracy of strikes against a clothed dummy, and I have no doubt that these were/are indeed possible. I'm glad to note that you have caught small, marble-sized objects in flight. I'm afraid to say, I have always been rubbish at that sort of thing. Without trying to sound too personal a note, as a small boy I had a 'lazy' left eye, in other words, it just refused to see, point blank, so I had to wear an eye patch over my right eye to force the left one to do its job for a few years. Unfortunately, because of this, I never developed good binocular vision and eye/hand coordination and I was always rubbish at ball games, especially cricket. Later, when I did some fencing, that was better, as a certain amount of 'feel' is involved and somehow a fencing foil coming at me at speed didn't seem to 'phase' me nearly as much as a ball coming at speed. Turning to Master Yang's demonstration of the sword fingers on throat technique, I guess that Master Yang has been studying martial arts since his teens or even childhood, so he has a considerable advantage in these sorts of reflexive techniques as opposed to those of us who have only taken up martial arts in adulthood. I an sure 'practice makes perfect'. In this connection, my posting was reallyconcerned with people such as myself, who have only taken up martial arts in adulthood and therefore have had less time to develop reflexes and accordingly have to think hard about how to respond to street attack appropriately in these increasingly violent times. On the sword finger cavity presses, I posted a message about this on the Tai Chi section recently, but so far, sadly, have had no replies on this very interesting topic. My question there related to the positioning of the two forefingers of the sword hand in attack, block and support, and whether (as I believe) there is a difference. I think that in attack, the two fingers should be slightly separated to maximise Chi flow to them, whereas in cases where the sword is supported by the fingers in contact with the wrist, the fingers should be together to maximise Chi flow into the blade via the sword-holding hand. In blocks, I think that again the two outstretched fingers of the secret sword hand should be slightly apart to allow the Chi to extend to those fingers for the block, but should then close as soon as the block is executed, in order for the Chi to be transmitted completely to the sword-holding hand. The throat is definitely a serious point for a pressure point attack, and possibly, I would guess, a good one, as the neck is less likely to move around independently than most other parts of the body. In his Tai Chi sword form, Master Yang is clearly seen using the sword fingers to attack the opponent's left eye (in Part Grass in search of Snake, if I remember, following covering the opponent's blade and pressing it down up to the hilt; then follows the counterstrike with the fingers to the eye (or throat)). Talking of Masters demonstrating these sorts of touches, I remember the Master I learned from in London demonstrating Kao Tan Mah (High Pat on Horse) on me very lightly and afterwards definitely even then I had a slight twinge in my shoulder for a while afterwards, clearly showing the devastating effectiveness of the technique. On the question of accuracy which you mention, personally, just from a Tai Chi point of view, I believe that a really pedantic insistence from a good Master, on placing ones body accurately, to within an inch or less in every move and in its transitions, is an invaluable training, since if you can't place your own body with great accuracy, then you have no hope of targetting your opponent's to a similar degree. Kind regards, T.

[SunTzu]

Dim Mak (Dian Mai) is part of Qinna training so is often used in combination with other parts of Qinna training (joint lock etc). To explain:
While performing a joint locking technique (especially when the opponent is bigger than you) you can make use of the pressure points in the body to give yourself the advantage of the situation.
The study of this matter is very deep, and by the time you're able to apply the techniques knowledgeable and effective, that will be around the same time you can open a TCM practice. What I mean by this is, you mustn't take this subject lightly. It should be learned under the guidance of a qualified instructor, who can also revive you when you're knocked out during practice.

It's the same reason why dr. Yang doesn't go in depth on this subject in his books. It's too dangerous to be taught/practiced by just anyone.

[Tarandus]

Excuse my ignorance, Sun Tzu, but what is a TCM practice? What you say about the application of Dim Mak to joint locking certainly makes more sense to me in terms of viability than actually striking moving targets. I hope I haven't been misunderstood - I certainly don't take the subject lightly. Certainly, it is highly dangerous, and I am not surprised that Dr. Yang refrains from detailed discussion of it in his books. Kind regards, T.

[Dim Mak]

Excuse my ignorance, Sun Tzu, but what is a TCM practice? What you say about the application of Dim Mak to joint locking certainly makes more sense to me in terms of viability than actually striking moving targets. I hope I haven't been misunderstood - I certainly don't take the subject lightly. Certainly, it is highly dangerous, and I am not surprised that Dr. Yang refrains from detailed discussion of it in his books. Kind regards, T.

TCM is what I study. It stands for traditional chinese medicine and includes acupuncture, cupping, moxibustion, tui na, gua sha, qigong, and herbology.

As for your question about the training; the only way to truly learn something is to do it. I am not advocating going around trying to do killing strikes or anything. I can only do the knock outs at this point, but I learned them by doing them in a training environment with a moving partner. Your striking surface is pretty important. I use one or two knuckle punches only, or I use a bridge hand focusing on one knuckle. As for actually landing the shot, it's just like landing any other shot; if you don't have the raw speed, use a set up tactic to divert their attention elsewhere for a split second. Many of the knock out or "pain" points are on top of or next to bone near the surface of the skin and it doesn't take much pressure to activate them. Some disrupt the signal to the central nervous sytem causing a KO and some multi shot points destroy vital qi. I hope this helps.

[Tarandus]

Dim Mak: your reply does indeed help, and clears up many doubts and reservations I had about this dangerous topic. I am impressed that you have practised against moving targets. May I ask what system of martial arts you practise? Is it an external or internal system, or a hard/soft style, or what? Kind regards, T.

[Dim Mak]

Dim Mak: your reply does indeed help, and clears up many doubts and reservations I had about this dangerous topic.

Glad I could help . It's easy enough to find the information for the strikes, but I would suggest only practicing these techniques with someone who has experience and is familiar with the Mu and Shu points of the body, as well as the jing well points for quick revivals with little to no after effects.

I am impressed that you have practised against moving targets.

Thanks, but you shouldn't be. My teacher used to say, "dummies don't punch back"; meaning of course that to truly learn how to use something in a fighting situation, you have to simulate that situation as closely as you can. When you practice at first, you use control and assume if you hit the point or not based on your honest judgement. As your practice progresses you should land them lightly. The other person can tell you if you hit the point or not, because it doesn't take much pressure to activate many of the points. In this way you can work on accuracy without knocking your friends out everyday! Also, practice landing precise shots on non points or arbitrary points just for the practice. Eventually you will just land the single point or double point knock outs but this should be saved for a testing situation, not just practiced at will.

May I ask what system of martial arts you practise? Is it an external or internal system, or a hard/soft style, or what? Kind regards, T.

I have studied a few styles which have just become a mixture. This is because my first and primary style was Isshin-Ryu/ Isshin Kenpo, (an Okinawan hard and soft style) from the A.J. Advincula lineage. In Isshin-Ryu there is a time restriction between first degree black belt and second. Since there is a manditory 3 year wait, we were encouraged to explore other styles to incorporate in our teaching. I studied kickboxing and Brizilian Jujitsu in my down time. My Isshin-Ryu instructor introduced me to qi and Dim Mak (and sanchin kata), but really instructed me after I hit brown belt. I enrolled in acupuncture school and moved to California to study acupuncture. Since I've been here I have gotten into Taiji and qigong. I couldn't find a school here that is rough enough to seem realistic to me, so I started teaching a class and inviting fighters from other gyms to come and test my pupil's skill and my own. Since then I have picked up a little wrestling and Muay Thai from some guys that decided to stick around and become regulars. I also picked up bits and pieces of the animal styles from sparring; for example, I use the hands from mantis style or tiger claw occasionally. So to answer your initial question, it is both hard and soft; internal and external. I do approximately 10 hours a week of taiji/qigong, and about 5 hours of our hard style sparring class, and don't really have a set style anymore. I try to balance yin and yang, but more importantly, I try to find the yin within yang and vice versa. Practicing both seems to help with this. I am currently trying to learn the original yang long form, and find a suitable teacher for Bagua.

[Tarandus]

Dim-Mak: sorry to take a while to get back to you here - I seem to have overlooked this section for a time. I hope you find the type of Yang style that suits you - and Sun Tzu's message about an appropriate style on the Taiji forum could be relevant to that. Thanks for all your information. Kind regards, T.

[Dvivid]

I certainly don't take the subject lightly. Certainly, it is highly dangerous, and I am not surprised that Dr. Yang refrains from detailed discussion of it in his books.

Dim Mak is discussed in this great Dr Yang article.
http://www.ymaa.com/articles/generating-jin

[lilman]

Dim Mak, as Dr. Yang states is a controversal subject. but if your concened of the percentage of being able to apply Dim Mak and or how or when, look at the Taiji Classics. It states that you stick adhere, follow, attack. So first your obviously going to stick, adhere, neutralize, and use your neutralization to open a door, simply by opening a door or a Qin na technique, then strike the cavity.

At this point my teacher has NOT yet taught me Dim Mak, but has expressed the desire to when he feels we (my Class) is ready. You should train so if you see the target you can hit the target immediately. In the U.S. Army Hand to Hand Combat training Manual... The old version not the watered down UFC version... It shows all the Cavity presses related to Jujitsu in detail and how to press and hit them and their results. It says you should first memorize all the points and results, and train realistically. The dummy thing is fine. In my trianing what i learned on is a punching bag shaped like a human body. There were small points like sharpy dots on it. we put powder on our hands and striked the cavities with different attacks. You dont have to hit the cavity dead on, just around the cavity and you could tell. but as soon as you could center the sharpy mark on your strikes, it was so simple to hit every time dead on. Then when I train with a person, I do not hit the cavity, but I strike and stop before contact. My favorite is Fair Lady works shuttle. It opens up the lower body for vital points such as the floating ribs and the armpits. I ussually do this with slap boxing just so I know I couldve already took the opponent out if it was a life or death situation.

[jfraser]

The above posting can be opened, but any responses are blocked here in China. Due to the tight contol over what news the Chinese people get, most believe the killing and burning of Chinese and Chinese property, was instigated by "evil Devils", and the people cannot understand what many foreigners are so upset about, and trying to interfer with Tourch carrying. Telling the real truth in most situations is a problem for this government machine (a term of Marx). I won't go furhter because of where I am now, in Jiangsu, and headed for Chengdu.

[artanes]

I think the short answer would be that they actually did it that way, and it was really, really hard. some people trained very hard and very long to do a lot of nearly impossible things back then.