Bagua Question

[How Ming]

Hi I'm new here. I dont think this was posted befor.
I'm just curious how many forms are in the original Dong Hai Chuan bagua system? I've been looking around for a school in my area that teaches bagua but couldnt find any. I did an internet search but didnt seem to find any info on the forms of Bagua.

Has anyone practiced Dong Hai Chuan Bagua? And how does it compare to the later styles of bagua?

[BaguaMonk]

Well finding an "original" style of bagua is going to be very hard, if there is even any. Most say that Dong taught his students according to needs and purposes (health, martial) and their previous experiences.

[yeniseri]

It has been stated that Dong's ancestor (same village) developed an art called bapanzhang but as Dong began to travel towards the capital he supposedly absorbed the various methods of village arts, Over time he incorporated tangnibu (mudwalking step/floating step) with baibu and kubu.

Bapanzhang is not popular but its method is running the circle as opposd to walking it. It has its adherents but not well known.

[jellybean]

Dong Hai Chuan has 2 Ba Gua System and 3 ultimate moves.
One of the system is lost (the system he created).-
The Reversing Ba Gua.
It was told that this form was so hard to understand none of the 3 main students understood. He gave the 3 students each a different ultimate move. More or less under the stress of his student becoming more powerful than him, but they never did.

I know some of his moves due to friend's dad's master.
It's not really practicle untill you reach certin level of inner power. It's hard to apply but very very, very powerful. Dong Hai Chuan's Ba Gua has many tricks he created himself, so it's not the very original way using Ba Gua

The man who know's 1/3 of his martial art is still alive. He's pretty old, but amazingly powerful
They don't really share much unless you're a loyal friend or blood line.

[BaguaMonk]

Hmm, I'm not sure about the "ultimate move" thing. As far as research goes, and even word of mouth, his best and main students were all taught different because they all had different martial art backgrounds. For example, Cheng was a famous wrestler so his spiraling bagua became more centered towards throws and sweeps.All of them were already quite good, if not experts at other martial arts. But Bapanzhang is definitely interesting, its also interesting to see the arts that heavily influenced xingyi.But every Master will always have a favorite and/or most effective "technique" they favor. Good teachers will always work on the strengths of their students.

Now as for lightness skill, I wish we knew more about it. Supposedly he taught it to one person and that person used it to steal and what-not. Thus he probably never taught it again.

Once you read about and practice enough IMA, there are no real secrets, its all about practice and internal alchemy (awareness). How you apply the art, is ALWAYS going to differ on the student.Now, there has been so much cross training and streamlining, that finding the essence of original bagua is difficult. But, that also means that there are hardly any "secret techniques," it is just not knowledge that is either disclosed, or is only TRULY gained through self-practice.

[jellybean]

Yea... that's very true about how practicing take a huge part in completing you're skills. I think it's while training with many other people, you find you're edge and cut down you're weakness.

Dong Hai Chuan's moves are all pretty much costum made to suit best for him. Over all, he's pretty tall and has strong shoulders, arms, and legs. With his overwhelming inner force backing him up, he can apply all his tricks will with ease.
Take the same moves that he uses on to another same level person just isn't going to get the same result

Trust me on this one there will always be secret techniques.
well more or less it's the part where the teacher doesn't want to share or soemthing that's put aside to keep you leveled. I guess calling them secret would not define them perfectly, but it is those itty bitty tips that triggers the whole.

I 100% agree with you that original things are hard to find in teh states.
Sometimes, the original isn't the best though.
Finding root is always good, keep us reminded how the essence is suppose to be, yet breaking the rule book to enhance for better is even more importent.

[BaguaMonk]

Yeah your right. I guess I just don't see any "secrets" because nowadays, with accupessure, chi gong knowledge, and even martial techniques floating around, it is much easier to "put pieces together," after all, how did masters get where they got? Someone didn't make them as good as they were, in Bagua, the way you twist and create vectors in even a twist of a palm or spin (or whatever) can create a specific type of power to use (strike throw, ,whatever). There will always be those "minute" details, but I wish some of these teachers weren't so secretive with what they've learnt, because many die with their knowledge.

I find that simply by practicing, you discover. I always practice moving in a bagua fashion, and possibilities for "techniques" are absolutely limitless. But I could see how a teacher disclosing "secret techniques" might be useful, and that is only because they either learned it from someone, or because they found a way to attain and systematically develop this 'skill.'

And I know, that no amount of chi, posture, or "technique" will ever stop someone from knocking you out, or getting you on the floor and taking advantage of it, unless you know how to fight as well. I'm sure we've all seen the fight at Macau...is that how gong fu masters are supposed to fight? I don't think so, I think the politics in MA was so heavy, and everyone lacked real fighting experienced that when it came to it just resulted to throwing haymakers and losing balance.

I know that the main reason these masters withhold this information is for many, but mainly (IMO) because 1) they don't want others to perfect these skills and beat them 2) keep control of their students 3)they have no other profession or money making skills, so it is their "treasure" 4) they are caught up in the politics 5)students who cant understand nor put them in practice 6)For cultural or racial reasons.

If only these people knew their art was dying, and that the light has been shed that there is nothing "magic" nor unbeatble about these arts.

[jellybean]

One of the biggest reason is also because they have a son.
They wouldn't want you're kid to be better then theirs.

Chinese is a pretty competitve race and when it comes to something good, its normaly automaticly held back. It works like a family treasure.