<< Roman Book of Stratagems >>

Use this topic to discuss themes not related to martial arts. Everyone needs to chat sometimes, discuss some personal ideas, maybe talk about movies or music, please use this topic for that, so we can keep all other themes on the Martial Arts topic.

Moderators: nyang, Dvivid, Inga

<< Roman Book of Stratagems >>

Postby Phalanxpursos » Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:54 am

Greetings everyone.

This forum mainly focusses on Eastern Practice and Philosophy, while I am more where East meets the West. I am sure that many of you here have heard of Sun Tzu's Art of War, the Western equavalent of that is Julius Frontinus's Strategemata from the time of Nerva. If you are looking for literature about strategy, then is this an important topic for you to read.

Here are some articles about Sextus Julius Frontinus Strategemata.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... ta/1*.html
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... ta/2*.html
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... ta/3*.html
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... ta/4*.html

Here are some of my favorite quotes from those books:

Strategemata Liber Primus;
XII. On dispelling the fears inspired in soldiers by adverse omens.

As Chabrias, the Athenian, was about to fight a naval battle, a thunderbolt fell directly across the path of his ship. When the soldiers were filled with dismay at such a portent, he said: "Now is the very time to begin battle, when Jupiter, mightiest of the gods, reveals that his power is present with our fleet.


Strategemata Liber Secundus;
VIII. On Restoring Morale by Firmness.

In the battle in which King Tarquinius encountered the Sabines, Servius Tullius, then a young man, noticing that the standard-bearers fought halfheartedly, seized a standard and hurled it into the ranks of the enemy. To recover it, the Romans fought so furiously that they not only regained the standard, but also won the day.


Strategemata Liber Secundus;
XI. On Ensuring the Loyalty of Those Whom One Mistrusts.

When Scipio Africanus was warring in Spain, there was brought before him among the captive women a noble maiden of surpassing beauty who attracted the gaze of everyone. Scipio guarded her with the greatest pains and restored her to her betrothed, Alicius by name, presenting to him likewise, as a marriage gift, the gold which her parents had brought to Scipio as a ransom. Overcome by this manifold generosity, the whole tribe leagued itself with the government of Rome.


Strategemata Liber Quartus;
VI. On Good Will and Moderation.

When Alexander was marching at the head of his troops one winter's day, he sat down by a fire and began to review the troops as they passed by. Noticing a certain soldier who was almost dead with the cold, he bade him sit in his place, adding: "If you had been born among the Persians, it would be a capital crime for you to sit on the king's seat; but since you were born in Macedonia, that privilege is yours.


Strategemata Liber Quartus;
V On Determination ("The Will to Victory")

Gaius Caesar, when about to fight the Germans and their king Ariovistus, at a time when his own men had been thrown into panic, called his soldiers together and declared to the assembly that on that day he proposed to employ the services of the tenth legion alone. In this way he caused the soldiers of this legion to be stirred by his tribute to their unique heroism, while the rest were overwhelmed with mortification to think that reputation for courage should be confined to others.


Here are some additional websites regarding Roman and Byzantine tactics:

http://www.roman-empire.net/army/army.html
http://www.roman-empire.net/army/tactics.html
http://www.roman-empire.net/diverse/battles.html

Caesar is Rome's number 1 Military Commander, Constantine number 2 and Scipio number 3.
Strategemata Liber Secundus;
"VIII: Restore Morale with Firmness"
Phalanxpursos
Forum Guru
 
Posts: 231
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 12:39 pm
Location: Europe

Re: << Roman Book of Stratagems >>

Postby Sanfung » Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:41 pm

I have long been enamored with the Republican and Imperial literature of Rome, and it was really inspiring to read those quotes. It's been a long time since I've read any of the works of Sextus Julius Frontinus. I think I'm going to start meditating on these sadly forgotten aspects of western philosophy.

If you don't mind me asking, is your forum name a reference to the Phalanx infantry formation? That would make sense with an interest in Greco-Roman philosophy and history.

The initial quote from Primus chapter XII was particularly apropos for me. I lack perseverance in the face of adversity, and I recognize that as one of my biggest personality faults. Since I look to this forum for growth, among many other places, it was nice to see that. Sometimes it's good just to receive a little reminder, so to speak, not to give up when things get difficult. That being said, the author seems to be discussing inspiration in the purest form, which is certainly a powerful tool.

Strategemata Liber Primus;
VII. How to conceal the Absence of the Things we lack, or to supply Substitutes for Them

This place, I think, is not inappropriate for recounting that famous deed of Alexander of Macedon. Marching along the desert roads of Africa, and suffering in common with his men from most distressing thirst, when some water was brought him in a helmet by a soldier, he poured it out upon the ground in the sight of all, in this way serving his soldiers better by his example of restraint than if he had been able to share the water with the rest.


You previously mentioned that you study the intersection of Eastern and Western philosophy. I found this to be an excellent example of that. I've consistently found a concept in many Eastern martial arts regarding the hacking away at unnecessary things and eliminating that stands in the way of growth. Again, it's something I find quite apropos and I'm sure everyone has some hang up that stands in his or her way. Frontinus' commentary on pouring out the water is a very vivid display of the power of self restraint on how not to give into one's burning desires.

Thank you again for posting links to this work that's sadly so often forgotten.
Sanfung
Forum Guru
 
Posts: 204
Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 3:05 am

Re: << Roman Book of Stratagems >>

Postby Phalanxpursos » Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:45 pm

Hey Sanfung I used to consult the book of stratagems when I was playing World of Warcraft, I not only vanquished the enemy but also secured the attachment of the entire tribe.

Sanfung wrote:I have long been enamored with the Republican and Imperial literature of Rome, and it was really inspiring to read those quotes. It's been a long time since I've read any of the works of Sextus Julius Frontinus. I think I'm going to start meditating on these sadly forgotten aspects of western philosophy.


My passion for Greek mythology and Roman history is because I am of Venetian descendant.

Sanfung wrote:If you don't mind me asking, is your forum name a reference to the Phalanx infantry formation? That would make sense with an interest in Greco-Roman philosophy and history.


I used to call myself LucisGladius, then I decided that I rather have a Greek name. The search for Balance Beacon was PhalanxPursos, so I took the name.

Sanfung wrote:The initial quote from Primus chapter XII was particularly apropos for me. I lack perseverance in the face of adversity, and I recognize that as one of my biggest personality faults. Since I look to this forum for growth, among many other places, it was nice to see that. Sometimes it's good just to receive a little reminder, so to speak, not to give up when things get difficult. That being said, the author seems to be discussing inspiration in the purest form, which is certainly a powerful tool.


Well learning how to relax solves a lot of personality and health problems.

Strategemata Liber Primus;
VII. How to conceal the Absence of the Things we lack, or to supply Substitutes for Them

This place, I think, is not inappropriate for recounting that famous deed of Alexander of Macedon. Marching along the desert roads of Africa, and suffering in common with his men from most distressing thirst, when some water was brought him in a helmet by a soldier, he poured it out upon the ground in the sight of all, in this way serving his soldiers better by his example of restraint than if he had been able to share the water with the rest.


Yeah I read that section about an infamous deed of Alexander of Macedon.

Sanfung wrote:You previously mentioned that you study the intersection of Eastern and Western philosophy. I found this to be an excellent example of that. I've consistently found a concept in many Eastern martial arts regarding the hacking away at unnecessary things and eliminating that stands in the way of growth. Again, it's something I find quite apropos and I'm sure everyone has some hang up that stands in his or her way. Frontinus' commentary on pouring out the water is a very vivid display of the power of self restraint on how not to give into one's burning desires.

Thank you again for posting links to this work that's sadly so often forgotten.


Well I would like that European culture is more influenced by the Greeks and Romans.
Strategemata Liber Secundus;
"VIII: Restore Morale with Firmness"
Phalanxpursos
Forum Guru
 
Posts: 231
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 12:39 pm
Location: Europe

Re: << Roman Book of Stratagems >>

Postby Sanfung » Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:24 pm

Haha, your mention of World of Warcraft reminds me of a player I knew on the original Starcraft. They used to apply concepts from the Art of War, which as you said is rather similar. Greco-Roman philosophy certainly makes up the building blocks of Western civilization, and you're absolute right in your wish for it to be more openly discussed. Did you have any other ideas for texts from these civilizations to be studied, or any other favorite quotes from the Book of Stratagems?

By the way, I'm learning very well just how importance relaxation and being in a serene state is. Training is finally giving me the outlet I needed for my nervous emotions.
Sanfung
Forum Guru
 
Posts: 204
Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 3:05 am

Re: << Roman Book of Stratagems >>

Postby Phalanxpursos » Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:29 am

Sanfung wrote:Haha, your mention of World of Warcraft reminds me of a player I knew on the original Starcraft. They used to apply concepts from the Art of War, which as you said is rather similar. Greco-Roman philosophy certainly makes up the building blocks of Western civilization, and you're absolute right in your wish for it to be more openly discussed. Did you have any other ideas for texts from these civilizations to be studied, or any other favorite quotes from the Book of Stratagems?

By the way, I'm learning very well just how importance relaxation and being in a serene state is. Training is finally giving me the outlet I needed for my nervous emotions.


Book I of Strategemata deals with the preparations before war, Book II deals with events that occur in battle itself. Book III discusses the issue of siege, Book IV deals with Military Science.

When I was playing World of Warcraft on a RP/PvP realm did I use Strategemata to upgrade my military rethoric.
Strategemata Liber Secundus;
"VIII: Restore Morale with Firmness"
Phalanxpursos
Forum Guru
 
Posts: 231
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 12:39 pm
Location: Europe

Re: << Roman Book of Stratagems >>

Postby Sanfung » Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:36 am

Ironically enough, when I was big into Starcraft quite a few people used the Art of War as a basis to form their various tactics. It interesting to see a very different take on things, and I'm especially glad that there's that commentary on siege in there. Few people have a realistic view of wars during Antiquity and the Dark Ages. While the image of caparisoned horses and knights in shining armor might certainly be romantic, countless wars were actually fought with siege engines and battering rams backed up by legions of drafted farmers.
Sanfung
Forum Guru
 
Posts: 204
Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 3:05 am

Re: << Roman Book of Stratagems >>

Postby Phalanxpursos » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:14 am

Sanfung wrote:Ironically enough, when I was big into Starcraft quite a few people used the Art of War as a basis to form their various tactics.


Well I used Roman, Byzantine and Hun tactics in Age of Empires and Rome Total War, I posted the websites about Roman & Byzantine tactics in my first post. The Byzantine formation worked very good, but the formation that was used by Alexander the great works better.

Sanfung wrote:It interesting to see a very different take on things, and I'm especially glad that there's that commentary on siege in there. Few people have a realistic view of wars during Antiquity and the Dark Ages. While the image of caparisoned horses and knights in shining armor might certainly be romantic, countless wars were actually fought with siege engines and battering rams backed up by legions of drafted farmers.


Rome gained it's military successes mainly by the usage of siege tactics and siege crafts.
Strategemata Liber Secundus;
"VIII: Restore Morale with Firmness"
Phalanxpursos
Forum Guru
 
Posts: 231
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 12:39 pm
Location: Europe

Re: << Roman Book of Stratagems >>

Postby John the Monkey mind » Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:20 pm

Phalanxpursos wrote:Rome gained it's military successes mainly by the usage of siege tactics and siege crafts.


You can only lay siege when you already have mastery of the field. Still the Romans did know how to conduct a good siege. The account of the siege of Athens shows just how systematic they where.

Have you read Vegetius?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vegetius-Epitom ... 085323910X
John the Monkey mind
Forum ÜberGuru
 
Posts: 482
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:15 am

Re: << Roman Book of Stratagems >>

Postby Phalanxpursos » Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:46 am

John the Monkey mind wrote:You can only lay siege when you already have mastery of the field. Still the Romans did know how to conduct a good siege. The account of the siege of Athens shows just how systematic they where.

Have you read Vegetius?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vegetius-Epitom ... 085323910X


Thank you John the Monkey mind, I am new with Vegetius. I did some quick research about him, turns out he is from the later Western empire from the time of Theodosius. Vegetius got his sources from Cato the Elder, Cornelius Celsus, Frontinus, Paternus and the imperial constitutions of Augustus, Trajan, and Hadrian, so this also includes Sextus Julius Frontinus.

But those sources of Vegetius are very powerful.
Strategemata Liber Secundus;
"VIII: Restore Morale with Firmness"
Phalanxpursos
Forum Guru
 
Posts: 231
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 12:39 pm
Location: Europe

Re: << Roman Book of Stratagems >>

Postby John the Monkey mind » Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:50 am

Phalanxpursos wrote:
John the Monkey mind wrote:You can only lay siege when you already have mastery of the field. Still the Romans did know how to conduct a good siege. The account of the siege of Athens shows just how systematic they where.

Have you read Vegetius?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vegetius-Epitom ... 085323910X


Thank you John the Monkey mind, I am new with Vegetius. I did some quick research about him, turns out he is from the later Western empire from the time of Theodosius. Vegetius got his sources from Cato the Elder, Cornelius Celsus, Frontinus, Paternus and the imperial constitutions of Augustus, Trajan, and Hadrian, so this also includes Sextus Julius Frontinus.

But those sources of Vegetius are very powerful.


Vegetius is significant because many many rulers used his text to reform their armies in years to come. I think king Alfred probably did and I know Oliver Cromwell did. Also the "total war" games based their combat dynamics on his descriptions of tactics and the reactions of troops.

I also know that Vegetius is the go to source for experts on the Roman military and we used him a bit at my uni in the Roman army module.

Vegetius would have had access to other texts now lost to us and he was also active in the living tradition of the Roman army and even though it was during a diminished age echoes of its past self would have been active and informed his writings. He probably also had battlefield experience.

His writing was an attempt to re-energise the Roman army back to its past prowess. Sadly he failed to reverse decline, however his texts later use in training armies that dominated their ages vindicated him in full. Although he probably mixed information from different ages he gives a good model for Roman military power.
John the Monkey mind
Forum ÜberGuru
 
Posts: 482
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:15 am

Re: << Roman Book of Stratagems >>

Postby Phalanxpursos » Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:39 pm

John the Monkey mind wrote:His writing was an attempt to re-energise the Roman army back to its past prowess. Sadly he failed to reverse decline, however his texts later use in training armies that dominated their ages vindicated him in full. Although he probably mixed information from different ages he gives a good model for Roman military power.


Well any thanks for showing me the link, I hadn't heard of Vegetius before.
Strategemata Liber Secundus;
"VIII: Restore Morale with Firmness"
Phalanxpursos
Forum Guru
 
Posts: 231
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 12:39 pm
Location: Europe


Return to General Chat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron