Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

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Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby Amaranth » Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:51 am

Also... when you lean over to far and fall, how else are you to know your full range without falling? If you want to know how to avoid conflict, how are you to know the ranges that are safe in avoiding conflict without playing near the border... Besides sitting in the middle and living in a bubble?
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Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby Phalanxpursos » Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:13 am

Non-Violence and Self Defense are a positive Paradox.
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Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby pete5770 » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:53 pm

Amaranth wrote:There is some natural tendencies to lash-out, and it seems to me that martial artists should have a better grasp on controlling these outbursts.


I not so sure that martial artist's, simply because they are martial artist's, have any better (or worse) grasp on control than anyone else. People will be who they are and even though this idea of never using whatever skills you have, which we are always told from day one, is not a bad idea, it doesn't seem to really have any meaning to anyone other than being some noble ideal.
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Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby Josh Young » Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:09 pm

pete5770 wrote:I not so sure that martial artist's, simply because they are martial artist's, have any better (or worse) grasp on control than anyone else. People will be who they are and even though this idea of never using whatever skills you have, which we are always told from day one, is not a bad idea, it doesn't seem to really have any meaning to anyone other than being some noble ideal.


I disagree.

I've seen martial arts result in positive personality change in several individuals.

The pursuit of self mastery inherent to such practice often does this, though it is not guaranteed to do so.
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Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby Sanfung » Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:19 am

I have to agree with Josh. Dedicated martial arts training can genuinely lead people to positive personality changes. The dedication they put into their training can lead to focus in other aspects of their life. However, this change isn't mystical in any way. They have to want to change and want to better themselves. They then have to work hard to do it. It's not something that comes over night and many belt mills, for lack of a better term, have tried to make it seem like there's some sort of mystical turn around. There isn't.

However, martial arts training can be an excellent way to provide focus and correct many shortcomings. Likewise, it's also a way for someone to quickly learn about what those shortcomings are. Some people might not like being faced with their problems, but they can't be fixed unless they realize what they are in the first place.

I believe that some of my comments before were misunderstood, so I would appreciate an opportunity to clarify my positions. Allow me to stress that I have not intended to misquote or offend anyone, though I am appreciative of the fact that Phalanxpursos liked my quotes. By the way, you practiced Professor Cheng Man-ching's methodology? That's very impressive.

I consider myself to be a very peaceful individual. As a few people here have suggested already, skills that are practiced in martial arts training are useful in certain situations but that same training stresses on how not to put oneself in the situations where they are necessary. There are people that words alone cannot reach. I wouldn't deny that. However, I don't believe that practicing security and self-preservation is in any way contradictory to a peaceful lifestyle. A Buddhist temple is certainly a very peaceful place, but that the Vaisravana or Bishamon protects peace. Having a certain set of skills never means that a certain individual actually wishes to be put into a situation where they would be required to use them.
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Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby wpgtaiji » Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:12 am

Sanfung wrote:I consider myself to be a very peaceful individual.

If you read the book, "How to Win Friends and Influence people", by Dale Carnegie (c 1936), you will see that EVERYONE thinks this about themselves! LOL Not saying you aren't mate! Just struck me as interesting.
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Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby Sanfung » Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:00 pm

Haha, I haven't read that book but would you recommend it? I guess, in some ways, everyone considering himself or herself to be peaceful is both true and a slight fallacy. Naturally, even people who are quite malicious usually consider themselves to be righteous. If nothing else, mate, I hope I haven't sounded cruel in any way ever myself here!
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Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby caesar » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:53 am

Hi Phalanxpursos!


caesar wrote:Really? In a former martial art, we even had scenario training where we would practice taking punches and kicks so that minimum damage would be felt. Our teacher was often talking about pacifist views and explained to us how it is often better to take a few hits instead of proving oneself that you "can defend/beat", this was where the question of human's ego comes to light.


That sounds interesting, was this just basic selfdefense?
''

Hmm...I'm not totally sure what you're asking...What is "basic" and what is not? Well...in this case (absorbing punches & kicks), it was a very basic thing to be trained, so that more advanced methods could be used. It was kinda like an exercise that would take you a long time to "master." But in the end, the idea behind the exercise was so wide and deep that I felt like it connected the whole art together. For example, at the same time we would be learning to absorb a punch or kick so that it would kinda like "sink" into my body so that the opponent thinks he's/she's been succesful with the punch, even though it's the opposite. But this exercise would also be a bridge, to learn how to dodge something in the very last moment, following the feeling and sense of how the opponent is taking contact.

I hope this helped. :)



caesar wrote:"how someone can practice martial arts and then claim they are non violent?"


Well that is what is called a Paradox, Selfdefense and Non-Violence is a Good Paradox.


You have a point. But that was not my line, I was referring to what Pete said if you look more closely.
:-)
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Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby pete5770 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:11 pm

Sanfung wrote: Having a certain set of skills never means that a certain individual actually wishes to be put into a situation where they would be required to use them.


I don't follow what the point of learning something is, if you never use the skill. Isn't the reason you learn a skill so that you can put it to use? Why spend a ton of time practicing playing pool and
then never play a game? The history of martial arts through the ages is anything but warm, cuddly, and fuzzy like most on this forum seem to want it to be.
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Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby caesar » Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:30 pm

pete5770 wrote:
Sanfung wrote: Having a certain set of skills never means that a certain individual actually wishes to be put into a situation where they would be required to use them.


I don't follow what the point of learning something is, if you never use the skill. Isn't the reason you learn a skill so that you can put it to use? Why spend a ton of time practicing playing pool and
then never play a game? The history of martial arts through the ages is anything but warm, cuddly, and fuzzy like most on this forum seem to want it to be.


Then please tell us Pete, that why is it that you train martial arts? You don't understand how:

by pete5770 » Wed May 30, 2012 3:23 pm

I really don't follow how someone can practice martial arts and then claim they are non violent?


It seems then that you are ok with yourself being violent then? That's how you define yourself?

Here you say:

I don't follow what the point of learning something is, if you never use the skill. Isn't the reason you learn a skill so that you can put it to use?


So your wish is to encounter a violent situation in the future so you could use your skill you have been training for 40 years?
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Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby caesar » Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:38 pm

I myself feel like I am getting all sorts of advantages from doing martial arts for my everyday life. Calmness speaks. The way it affects my well being already gives me the feeling that I am using the skill I passionately practice, even though there's no violence (and hopefully there won't be any.)

Practicing makes me more calm and I am much more for myself and the people around me then. Boring endless troublesome dialogues in my head vanish and I suddenly notice that my problems aren't that serious. The amount of hatred and bitterness I feel towards certain people decreases considerably.

Don't you get relaxed by training your tai chi? Does tai chi represent anything else to you except violence?
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Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby pete5770 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:40 pm

caesar wrote:
pete5770 wrote:
Sanfung wrote: Having a certain set of skills never means that a certain individual actually wishes to be put into a situation where they would be required to use them.


I don't follow what the point of learning something is, if you never use the skill. Isn't the reason you learn a skill so that you can put it to use? Why spend a ton of time practicing playing pool and
then never play a game? The history of martial arts through the ages is anything but warm, cuddly, and fuzzy like most on this forum seem to want it to be.


Then please tell us Pete, that why is it that you train martial arts? You don't understand how:

by pete5770 » Wed May 30, 2012 3:23 pm

I really don't follow how someone can practice martial arts and then claim they are non violent?


It seems then that you are ok with yourself being violent then? That's how you define yourself?

Here you say:

I don't follow what the point of learning something is, if you never use the skill. Isn't the reason you learn a skill so that you can put it to use?


So your wish is to encounter a violent situation in the future so you could use your skill you have been training for 40 years?


You and many others here are the ones claiming you study martial arts to become more peaceful, warm, and all fuzzy feeling. Not me. I like learning Tai Chi but I don't do it for some phony hippie blishful thing. If you want to be good and non violent and contibute to a kindler, more gentle world then study the Humanities, spend your spare time with charities, help the homeless, or whatever but don't give me the "I'm helping the world" speech because you're a martial artist and you study a violent art. No, most people are interested in a martial art strictly for themselves(selfish desire) and being known as a martial artist by friends and family(showing off). Look a little deeper into yourself and your reasons for studying martial arts, not at the shallow claims of some perfect world ideal.
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Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby caesar » Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:04 pm

I've looked deeper inside myself Pete and I know what I'm doing. And I'm by the way also doing charity work, and I'm also more calm there because of martial arts.

You wrote...
You and many others here are the ones claiming you study martial arts to become more peaceful, warm, and all fuzzy feeling.


Funny you see it that way. I've been telling here my own feelings, opinions and experiences but I'm not speaking for others. But on the other hand you are the one here that has been claiming martial arts to make you more violent, denying that there are also other possibilities how a human grows while studying martial arts.

You wrote...

I really don't follow how someone can practice martial arts and then claim they are non violent?


This is where the discussion started, remember?

The other part of all this, the non violent part, is simply something they are "supposed" to say.


How do you know? Been interviewing all of them? That's a pretty wild statement there Pete!

And just as your reputation indicates...I didn't get any answer from you. But nice twisting again. Why do you do martial arts, again?
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Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby wpgtaiji » Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:56 pm

pete5770 wrote:You and many others here are the ones claiming you study martial arts to become more peaceful, warm, and all fuzzy feeling. Not me. I like learning Tai Chi but I don't do it for some phony hippie blishful thing. If you want to be good and non violent and contibute to a kindler, more gentle world then study the Humanities, spend your spare time with charities, help the homeless, or whatever but don't give me the "I'm helping the world" speech because you're a martial artist and you study a violent art. No, most people are interested in a martial art strictly for themselves(selfish desire) and being known as a martial artist by friends and family(showing off). Look a little deeper into yourself and your reasons for studying martial arts, not at the shallow claims of some perfect world ideal.

mate, you are training bullshido! The postures themselves (in taiji) cause the body to be in a state of BALANCE. When one is in balance, the desire to hurt and maim is lost. That is why people train! The WTBA tends to be on the "aggressive" side of taiji, yet, it is probably more balanced and less "violent" than any other art on the face of the earth, despite it being an assassin art :) The more you talk, the less you actually know mate. please, move on and find a nice Ballet forum to harass...
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Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby Sanfung » Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:19 pm

Though I mean to goad no one in saying so, I find the idea that training in Tai Chi Ch'uan is purely to increase a vicious aim to be rather discouraging. While history might clearly illustrate numerous individuals who used their arts for selfish gains, there have been just as many who tempered themselves and sought a state of self-improvement. Humans are naturally rather selfish and sinful beings, so there's naturally going to be a number of bad seeds in any grouping. However, one cannot say that the actions of certain people suggest that an entire art is violent.

I do not consider myself to be a hippie in any respect. However, I was drawn to the art of Tai Chi Ch'uan to get over certain negative influences in my life and attain a state of balance. I have serious anxiety issues and grapple with a thought developmental disorder. While my own training may be quite hampered in these respects, it is allowing me to achieve a state of inner balance and calm that I wasn't able to reach previously. I find that discourse to the contrary is counterproductive.

As it was said before, I find that the individual Taiji postures are very helpful to gain a sort of equilibrium. When one focuses on this, I would have assumed that the egotistical and selfish aims of life were diminished to some degree.
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Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby Dvivid » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:52 pm

I think the recent Rory Miller books, like Meditations on Vilence and Facing Violence cover this subject very comprehensively.

He says some gems in this video trailer:

http://ymaa.com/publishing/bundles
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing
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Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby Phalanxpursos » Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:15 am

Dvivid wrote:I think the recent Rory Miller books, like Meditations on Vilence and Facing Violence cover this subject very comprehensively.

He says some gems in this video trailer:

http://ymaa.com/publishing/bundles


Thanks Dvivid for the website, I watched it and it was awesome.
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Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby mansao » Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:13 pm

at the end of the day it's all about self control
if you can control your self, the rest of the world should be easy
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Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby Sanfung » Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:31 am

Yeah, I have to agree with Phalanxpursos and Dvivid in that Rory Miller said a lot of great stuff in that trailer. I actually just bought one of Miller's books for my Nook. While the comments on ethical and legal boundaries touched on a lot of the questions we raised in this thread, I actually wanted to bring up that I appreciated something else Miller said in the video. In a lot of real life violent situations, combatants don't have the time to take a certain stance or use three particular motions. Many individuals have an unrealistic view of violence.

I should say, however, that I consider myself extremely fortunate to be able to live a life that is free of violent encounters and I have no wish to change that at all.
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Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby Phalanxpursos » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:04 am

I learned that Selfdefense and Non-violence are eachother's opposites, paradox means opposites. There are good paradoxes and bad paradoxes, selfdefense and non-violence are a positive paradox.
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