A correct practice path

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A correct practice path

Postby Vuk » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:21 am

Dear friends,

I looked all over the forum, and although there have been similar discussions, i guess that I need a specific answer in order to begin my qigong practice correctly.

for the past 13 years I've been studying Daoism, and finally, in Dr. Yang's books, I found a practical and clear approach to the practical side of Dao.

Since the type of practice is based upon our goals, I have to be clear about mine. Paraphrasing C. G. Jung ''Daoism has reached a level of knowledge about human nature which is a 1000 years ahead of current psychoanalysis". From my experience I feel pretty sure about this statement, and I would use Qigong to live life to the fullest, understand myself and nature.

I read a few of Dr. Yang's books (Qigong the Secret of Youth, MC Orbit, Emei Baguazhang), and watched the DVD series about Qigong, and I still have doubts about the correct practice order.

I am just not sure which method should I begin with? Should it be Embryonic breathing, MC orbit, Muscle/Tendon changing or something else? I'm willing to dedicate myself to this intensively.

This might help: I am 25 years old and in great health, I have always practiced sports intensively, and martial arts for the past 3 years (Baguazhang and some TaiJi), and most importantly, I have about 4 hours daily to dedicate to practice.

All suggestions are welcome

Thanks in advance!
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Re: A correct practice path

Postby joeblast » Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:02 pm

EB is the most fundamental of the things you mentioned. Certainly not MCO or the strict muscle & tendon changing methods. Begin with EB and practice it every day. Work on timing, smoothness, correct diaphragm movement (starts from the lower rear of it), and gently extend the duration as the habit-energy builds over many sessions.

Keep up the physical stuff. The yin side, meditation etc will increase the depth of potential, but dont forget about the physical training once you start realizing some good gains on the meditative side!
Even in mildly complex systems, any outcome is the wrong thing to target, with the process being where the focus should be.
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Re: A correct practice path

Postby Vuk » Tue Feb 18, 2014 2:00 pm

Thank you joeblast!
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Re: A correct practice path

Postby Dvivid » Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:47 am

I would add that you might want to also practice something "external" to balance your training. A wai dan (external elixir) qigong set, like the Eight Brocades, or Dr. Yang's amazing White Crane Qigong. or even, Tai Chi.
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing
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Re: A correct practice path

Postby sengstan2 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:19 am

Hi Vuk, Dvivid,

@ Vuk: sorry to hijack the thread your began, I do it just to ask for precisions you may also be interested in :D
Btw, Dvivid added two recommended study guides that can help:
the one for Qigong: http://ymaa.com/publishing/start-here/qigong
the one for Taijiquan: http://ymaa.com/publishing/start-here/tai-chi-chuan

@ Dvivid: You recommend White crane Qigong and I also read in this forum that the Taiji Ball Qigong was also powerful (if I recall well, you were quoting Dr Yang about it). Would you mind saying more about the compared benefits of the two ?

Thanks!
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Re: A correct practice path

Postby Dvivid » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:25 pm

Hi, sure.

White Crane Qigong has two parts: hard and soft. You should train the soft-style first, until you understand it and get very smooth in the movements. If you do hard-style first, it can be really difficult to learn to soften. You need to develop your control of relaxing the muscles and joints deeply for your health and energetic circulation. Without it, you'll have problems.

"White Crane Soft Qigong trains you to be soft, relaxed, and coordinated. It also promotes smooth Qi flow and builds robust health and longevity. Soft Qigong promotes exceptional health of the spine and helps to keep the waist and torso fit and flexible."

"White Crane Hard Qigong (chi kung) strengthens the muscles, tendons, and ligaments, and develops the strength and flexibility of the torso and spine. Hard Qigong also helps to build a strong root, improves your stability, and increases your muscular endurance. In addition to strength and power, Hard Qigong training builds up Qi in the limbs, which then circulates to the internal organs, nourishing them with Qi and improving your vitality."

So, this qigong builds the body physically and energetically in a comprehensive, balanced way.

Alternately, Tai Chi Ball Qigong historically was training to build the body specifically for Tai Chi practice. It teaches neutralizing, rooting, body structure, and has lots of partner exercises. But, it is really good for your health if that is your goal, especially when you start actually using a ball. Just remember you always want to soften after any hard-style qigong, loosen up, and relive any stagnation.

They go really well together...
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing
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Re: A correct practice path

Postby sengstan2 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:39 pm

Thanks a lot for your answer!
Dvivid wrote:They go really well together...
This part is the tough one :mrgreen: unless I practice them on alternate days..

_/\_
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Re: A correct practice path

Postby joeblast » Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:23 pm

'welcome vuk

sengstan...how do you normally finish up a hard set?
Even in mildly complex systems, any outcome is the wrong thing to target, with the process being where the focus should be.
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Re: A correct practice path

Postby sengstan2 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:16 pm

joeblast wrote: sengstan...how do you normally finish up a hard set?


with a soft set or with a massage ( bamboo brush) if I don't have time for the soft set. Why do you ask?

What I'm saying is : it would be difficult for me to practice the White crane Qigong (hard and soft) and the Taiji Ball Qigong the same day. Although I don't have TV (threw it away in 2003) and I don't go out for beers and alike, I have a little family, a PC, my job, a little social life so...
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Re: A correct practice path

Postby Dvivid » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:59 am

Yes, thats too much in one day anyway! I don't mean all at once. But they compliment each other well.
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing
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Re: A correct practice path

Postby Vuk » Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:31 am

Hi,

Since you've advised me to start with EB I have a question. Although I have been told not to start with Muscle/Tendon changing, the book says that in order to increase the storage capacity of the lower dantian that method should be used before you start storing the Qi.

So how should I proceed?
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Re: A correct practice path

Postby joeblast » Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:40 pm

you have to condition the guts in order to 'store more charge' ;) and establish that path of least resistance via copious amounts of stillness. when you get to the point of feeling the charge there, then spend some time with a modification of EB, by just focusing on the energy center itself, that will also increase the potential.

that's not to say you cant any sort of yjj...I do flexing sets plenty often...but training past a certain point becomes dangerous without very dedicated training. so long as you're taking it relatively easy you dont have anything to worry about. sometimes its tough to know when you're getting a little ahead of yourself, which is why you very often hear dont do this stuff without a teacher.
Even in mildly complex systems, any outcome is the wrong thing to target, with the process being where the focus should be.
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Re: A correct practice path

Postby Vuk » Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:11 am

Thank you Joeblast, but now I have even more questions! :P

1) Could you make me an example of the order of various phases of EB, including how much time should they last? Somehow i managed to find easily the Yin center (when it reached the area with my inner feeling my whole body started to shake intensively); now what? Should I massage my abdomen area for half an hour, 1, or 2 hours per day for a month, then start the Buddhist breathing (again, for 3, 6, 10 or more months, and how long on a daily basis)? or practice massage and Buddhist breathing daily from the start?

2)You said that if practiced in a moderate way YJJ isn't dangerous. I get that, what is the limit?
I read that the danger relates to stopping suddenly, without completing the process.

3) Which is the order when practicing Internal Alchemy? EB, YJJ, YXJ, MCO, Great Circullation...Are they all necessary steps in order to reach Spiritual Enlightenment (apart from the obvious ones as charging the lower dantian, Microcosmic and Great Circulation..), or are some of them interchangeable?

I said it before: I have about 4 h per day that I'm willing to invest in practice, and I'm ready to train and study intensively. I have been already doing it for years, but this is the first time I encountered a complete method.

I hope all this doesn't sound too dramatic :wink:
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Re: A correct practice path

Postby joeblast » Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:02 pm

sorry vuk been busy!

time doesnt exist, they didnt tell you that yet? :lol: take your time and observe your inner space calmly and clearly. balance. very key.

limit...we each have our own set of physical body issues. if you're in very good shape, perhaps it may only be stopping that is dangerous. but dont forget that this is every bit as much a mind game as a physical game. focus of awareness is a very important point. what's the limit...I dont really know, I mean we all saw the video of the hard qigong guy with the drill full speed at 50psi into his head, so your guess is as good as mine as to what the limits of the human body are :lol:

some things are present from beginning to end, some are at certain stages, much of it is of a matrixed nature where progress is not linear. if you want to study internal alchemy in depth, pick up a couple books and start studying the process (like taoist yoga or foundations of internal alchemy.) its not quite as simple as practice this for x amount of time, then that for y amount of time.

since these processes are not linear, you cant really ascribe specific durations. the better you are able to streamline your life and processes, the more quickly you'll make progress....the mind can hold you back in a million ways.


but back to your #1 briefly..
you got the yang side of it down good, now what's the duration of your breaths (roughly) and how is the stillness you able able to achieve?
has any of this begun manifesting at the niwan for you?
Even in mildly complex systems, any outcome is the wrong thing to target, with the process being where the focus should be.
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Re: A correct practice path

Postby Vuk » Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:35 pm

When meditating a breath of mine(inhalation+exhalation) lasts about 16 seconds, although it gets longer when I reach a deeper state of calmnes, once my mind gets empty.

I often experience these electrical shivers when I'm meditating, even if i just try to relax my body. It's funny because I lose control of my arm and it just moves freely as if it has its own will. I learned to move it through my body; it usually starts within my right arm, but I can move it in my legs, or in any other part of my body. It started when I got initiaded into reiki, two years ago. Recently this started to happen more often, after a friend of mine did me a reiki treatment. I was trembling intensively during the most of it (about an hour and a half) and in few moments, my limbs were streching as if I were in some invisible sphere (well, duh!). When it ended I started to cry out of nothing, perhaps I was processing some unexpressed emotions.

As for the stillness, I can calmly keep the posture for an hour, perhaps even more, but at that point I feel my legs starting to get numb
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Re: A correct practice path

Postby joeblast » Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:55 pm

most often shivery things are balancing, equalizations. twigs and branches get caught in the flow of water and form a dam; the water rises and ultimately pushes through - shiver. same concept in a way. that's why no need to pay attention to the phenomena. when the energy supports the posture a little more, good.
Even in mildly complex systems, any outcome is the wrong thing to target, with the process being where the focus should be.
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Re: A correct practice path

Postby yeniseri » Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:47 pm

When one is younger, it is more difficult to see benefit but overtime with proper habits this can be most beneficial by 3 simple rules:
1. Proper speech
2. Proper nutrition/diet
3. Proper action / deeds / behavior

These transcend Daoism but are part of it.
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