You've all been waithing for this

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You've all been waithing for this

Postby pete5770 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:13 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF21mSxjjL8

I finally got it together enough to record myself doing a bit of Yang long form. And then, miracle of miracles, I actually got some(not all) of it posted on YouTube. Took me all day. I'm exhausted.
In any case let the laughter, cursing, slamming, puts downs begin. I did the whole form but YouTube only gave me 10 minutes of it. Maybe I'll add more later when everyone needs another good laugh. Tougher than it looks doing it in my basement what with limited space and only so much camera angle. Please excuse the occasional stutter step I took in order to stay in front of the lens. Also I'm trying out a sort of new Needle in the Sea Bottom and don't think it looks right at all, nor does it feel right. Doesn't seem like I can get the required forward motion to it. Anyone???
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby sub_human » Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:33 pm

Thank u for sharing yourself^ with us.

&.. If I may, how long have you been practicing/using that particular form ?



.
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby Brian » Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:11 am

pete5770 wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF21mSxjjL8

I finally got it together enough to record myself doing a bit of Yang long form. And then, miracle of miracles, I actually got some(not all) of it posted on YouTube. Took me all day. I'm exhausted.
In any case let the laughter, cursing, slamming, puts downs begin. I did the whole form but YouTube only gave me 10 minutes of it. Maybe I'll add more later when everyone needs another good laugh. Tougher than it looks doing it in my basement what with limited space and only so much camera angle. Please excuse the occasional stutter step I took in order to stay in front of the lens. Also I'm trying out a sort of new Needle in the Sea Bottom and don't think it looks right at all, nor does it feel right. Doesn't seem like I can get the required forward motion to it. Anyone???


Firstly...well done 'pete'..very brave of you to put this up. Secondly, I will not laugh, curse,slam or put down your demonstration...your Form is YOUR Form, but I will ask you some questions/comment on the '1st Part' of your long form:

1. Why do you clasp your hands and raise them above your head at the beginning? Not in any 'Yang' style I've seen.
2. Why are you 'flicking' your fingers (esp. Left hand) as you do the movement? This must detract from seeking stillness in movement.
3. Your 'White Crane Spreads Wings'..no shifting of the weight to the right foot (creating substantial/insubstantial) and your left foot flat on ground (should be ball of foot only).
4. Why do you do 'Brush Knee twist Step/push' Twice before 'Play Pipa'
5. your 'Play Pipa' suffers from same problem as 'White Crane..' with no substantial/insubstantial differentiation.
6. When stepping you tend to raise your foot very high off the ground...this would make you (if pressure tested) very unstable.

These are just a few comments (there are many more I could make) in relation to the form and having looked at it I think you could do with some serious tuition with a GOOD Yang stylist to make some corrections and fine tune your Form.
Hope your not too annoyed by what I've said, but I do hope it helps.
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby pete5770 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:50 am

Brian wrote:
pete5770 wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF21mSxjjL8



.... but I will ask you some questions/comment on the '1st Part' of your long form:

1. Why do you clasp your hands and raise them above your head at the beginning? Not in any 'Yang' style I've seen.
2. Why are you 'flicking' your fingers (esp. Left hand) as you do the movement? This must detract from seeking stillness in movement.
3. Your 'White Crane Spreads Wings'..no shifting of the weight to the right foot (creating substantial/insubstantial) and your left foot flat on ground (should be ball of foot only).
4. Why do you do 'Brush Knee twist Step/push' Twice before 'Play Pipa'
5. your 'Play Pipa' suffers from same problem as 'White Crane..' with no substantial/insubstantial differentiation.
6. When stepping you tend to raise your foot very high off the ground...this would make you (if pressure tested) very unstable.



1.) It's not Yang(that I know of). I picked it up from someone who did it as a form of relaxing before beginning. Big breath in on the way up, out and relax on the way down.
2.) I've noticed this and it did show up quite often on the camera. Some years back my teacher noticed that I had a "tick" in the next to the last finger on my left hand(I think). He said it indicated a lung problem. Then Mesothelioma reared its ugly head. I only mention this to show that there could be a reason for it other than just old age, however old age and nervous ticks do seem to go together.
3.) I believe I am on my right foot and have shifted my weight. Not the best of camera angles to see this?? My left foot being flat on the floor doesn't have to mean I haven't shifted??
4.) It's the way I learned it from my last instructor and I do it because "why not?".
5.) Pretty sure there is a weight shift there. If I to focus on anything it's footwork.
6.) If you're talking about my stepping backward I believe that raising the foot like that toward the rear is correct form and function. If I raised my foot a bit too high while stepping forward, well that's my bad.
There ya go. Right, wrong, or off the charts, that's me. And yes I could use someone to "watch over me". Just haven't done it yet.
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby Brian » Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:16 am

3.) I believe I am on my right foot and have shifted my weight. Not the best of camera angles to see this?? My left foot being flat on the floor doesn't have to mean I haven't shifted??


There are a number of 'hidden' kicks in the Yang Form, performed at 'White Crane..' where the left foot is poised on ball of foot (100% weight on right), 'Fist Under Elbow' and 'Play pipa' where left foot is poised on the heel (100% weight on right).....I didn't notice you performing these (camera angle??)

5.) Pretty sure there is a weight shift there. If I to focus on anything it's footwork.


As above..
There ya go. Right, wrong, or off the charts, that's me. And yes I could use someone to "watch over me". Just haven't done it yet.


Go find one!!!
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby pete5770 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:59 am

Brian wrote:
3.) I believe I am on my right foot and have shifted my weight. Not the best of camera angles to see this?? My left foot being flat on the floor doesn't have to mean I haven't shifted??


There are a number of 'hidden' kicks in the Yang Form, performed at 'White Crane..' where the left foot is poised on ball of foot (100% weight on right), 'Fist Under Elbow' and 'Play pipa' where left foot is poised on the heel (100% weight on right).....I didn't notice you performing these (camera angle??)

5.) Pretty sure there is a weight shift there. If I to focus on anything it's footwork.


As above..
There ya go. Right, wrong, or off the charts, that's me. And yes I could use someone to "watch over me". Just haven't done it yet.


Go find one!!!


Some time back I remember a discussion an instructor and I had in which we talked about whether a sort of "Ding Bu", ball of the foot thing existed in Tai Chi. As I recall he poo pooed the idea and I most likely took it from there. So I used to do it but don't now. Maybe I'll go back. Learn something new every day.
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby Brian » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:18 am


Some time back I remember a discussion an instructor and I had in which we talked about whether a sort of "Ding Bu", ball of the foot thing existed in Tai Chi. As I recall he poo pooed the idea and I most likely took it from there. So I used to do it but don't now. Maybe I'll go back. Learn something new every day.


Here is a clip from YouTube showing 'Play the Pipa' with the kick at 3min 10sec:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iW2YSwGDTFA
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby pete5770 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:31 am

Watching yourself on video is very enlghtening. At least for me it was.
Here's what I saw.
1. Left hand fingers tremble.
2. Not as much body rotation as I thought I was doing.
3. Fairly lazy Brush Knee Push. Especially the hand doing the brushing.
4. Bad posture?? Most likely the result of spending 40 years leaning over a drafting table and slouched in front of a computer screen.
5. Lazy in the execution of Hands Strum the Lute.
6. Wide angle lens gives a weird sort of view of things.
7. Needle in the Sea Bottom doesn't look or feel right.
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby pete5770 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:44 am

Brian wrote:

Some time back I remember a discussion an instructor and I had in which we talked about whether a sort of "Ding Bu", ball of the foot thing existed in Tai Chi. As I recall he poo pooed the idea and I most likely took it from there. So I used to do it but don't now. Maybe I'll go back. Learn something new every day.


Here is a clip from YouTube showing 'Play the Pipa' with the kick at 3min 10sec:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iW2YSwGDTFA


I get what you're saying and I used to do both. Now I do neither. As for the resting on the toe, as stated before it was said not to exist(no ding bu). As for resting the foot on the heel I can recall being told to never expose the bottom of your feet. I'm going to go with neither being right or wrong, just differences of opinion and the truth is most likely somewhere in the middle. :wink:
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby Brian » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:55 am


As for resting the foot on the heel I can recall being told to never expose the bottom of your feet. I'm going to go with neither being right or wrong, just differences of opinion and the truth is most likely somewhere in the middle. :wink:


Don't forget..Taijiquan is a martial art...the Form is not the 'fighting' and therefore resting the foot on the heel is valid...in the context of an application, that foot moves very fast to execute the kick and therefore is (mostly) not at risk.
Also, I noticed that you, while performing the Form, would raise your toes as you moved forward, thereby exposing the bottom of your foot....why is it ok there, and not where it really means something??
C'mon Pete...you're still young enough to change your ways!! :wink: :wink:
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby pete5770 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:23 am

Brian wrote:

As for resting the foot on the heel I can recall being told to never expose the bottom of your feet. I'm going to go with neither being right or wrong, just differences of opinion and the truth is most likely somewhere in the middle. :wink:


Don't forget..Taijiquan is a martial art...the Form is not the 'fighting' and therefore resting the foot on the heel is valid...in the context of an application, that foot moves very fast to execute the kick and therefore is (mostly) not at risk.
Also, I noticed that you, while performing the Form, would raise your toes as you moved forward, thereby exposing the bottom of your foot....why is it ok there, and not where it really means something??
C'mon Pete...you're still young enough to change your ways!! :wink: :wink:


Know what you're saying and to honest I've not been able to reconcile the difference betwwen the two. My latest thoughts are to try and keep my foot from pointing up as I shift back and unweight it, as opposed to letting it point upward, and at the same time allowing it to rotate into position for the next whatever. I can remember when the thing to do was shift back and let the unweighted foot rotate on the heel. I also think that this is a beginneer thing in that it forces you to unweight that foot. So with me it's most likely a holdover from beginneer classes.
Does that make any sense at all?
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby Brian » Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:41 am


Know what you're saying and to honest I've not been able to reconcile the difference betwwen the two. My latest thoughts are to try and keep my foot from pointing up as I shift back and unweight it, as opposed to letting it point upward, and at the same time allowing it to rotate into position for the next whatever. I can remember when the thing to do was shift back and let the unweighted foot rotate on the heel. I also think that this is a beginneer thing in that it forces you to unweight that foot. So with me it's most likely a holdover from beginneer classes.
Does that make any sense at all?


It is all about maintaining your structure and balance while at the same time correctly applying the concept of shifting the weight. If, for ex you are in 'Brush Knee...' with left foot forward, the weighting will be 70% Front, 30% back leg...to move forward, the weighting on the left foot is VERY slightly adjusted back (to say, 68%) and then pivot foot on the heel (do NOT shift weight back so far as to loose your forward momentum)...if you must raise your toes, then let it be by only a few mm (thereby not exposing bottom of foot). Once the foot has been re-positioned, continue to shift the weight forward 'emptying' the back leg (which will naturally follow) and step forward to next position.
That's how I practice it (and teach it). The validity of it is proved by 'Posture Testing' with a partner putting pressure into your structure.
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby pete5770 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:04 pm

Brian wrote:

Know what you're saying and to honest I've not been able to reconcile the difference betwwen the two. My latest thoughts are to try and keep my foot from pointing up as I shift back and unweight it, as opposed to letting it point upward, and at the same time allowing it to rotate into position for the next whatever. I can remember when the thing to do was shift back and let the unweighted foot rotate on the heel. I also think that this is a beginneer thing in that it forces you to unweight that foot. So with me it's most likely a holdover from beginneer classes.
Does that make any sense at all?


If, for ex you are in 'Brush Knee...' with left foot forward, the weighting will be 70% Front, 30% back leg...to move forward, the weighting on the left foot is VERY slightly adjusted back (to say, 68%) and then pivot foot on the heel (do NOT shift weight back so far as to loose your forward momentum)...if you must raise your toes, then let it be by only a few mm (thereby not exposing bottom of foot). Once the foot has been re-positioned, continue to shift the weight forward 'emptying' the back leg (which will naturally follow) and step forward to next position.
That's how I practice it (and teach it). The validity of it is proved by 'Posture Testing' with a partner putting pressure into your structure.


Not quite following how you can pivot your foot(on the heel) with almost 70% of your weight on that foot. Seems to be pretty much a grinding motion against the ground and hard to do. Is this what you're saying? I tend to mostly unweight the front foot before pivoting it. Then shifting weight back to it as I move forward into the next position. Don't quite follow your pivoting with most of your weight on the pivot foot. Maybe I'm reading you wrong???
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby Brian » Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:32 pm

Not quite following how you can pivot your foot(on the heel) with almost 70% of your weight on that foot. Seems to be pretty much a grinding motion against the ground and hard to do. Is this what you're saying? I tend to mostly unweight the front foot before pivoting it. Then shifting weight back to it as I move forward into the next position. Don't quite follow your pivoting with most of your weight on the pivot foot. Maybe I'm reading you wrong???


It's a matter of practice, pete, however if you say that you "mostly unweight the front foot" then this is shifting your weight backwards and has the knock-on effect of uprooting your center, causing instability and weakness in the structure.
Anyway, it's up to you how you do the Form...I'm only pointing out differences and areas of your practice that I, as a teacher, would be worried about if,say, you were studying with me.

:)
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby pete5770 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:28 pm

Brian wrote:
Not quite following how you can pivot your foot(on the heel) with almost 70% of your weight on that foot. Seems to be pretty much a grinding motion against the ground and hard to do. Is this what you're saying? I tend to mostly unweight the front foot before pivoting it. Then shifting weight back to it as I move forward into the next position. Don't quite follow your pivoting with most of your weight on the pivot foot. Maybe I'm reading you wrong???


It's a matter of practice, pete, however if you say that you "mostly unweight the front foot" then this is shifting your weight backwards and has the knock-on effect of uprooting your center, causing instability and weakness in the structure.
Anyway, it's up to you how you do the Form...I'm only pointing out differences and areas of your practice that I, as a teacher, would be worried about if,say, you were studying with me.

:)


Brain f*rt on my part. About 15 years ago my Yang instructor was teaching us the Wu variation of Yang. Don't know why it didn't register with me but that's exactly how Wu pivots the foot. I remember because at first I had a problem with it what with ALWAYS shifting back and forth in Yang. I haven't done Wu in quite a few years and obviously I never made the "jump" in footwork from one to the other. Thanks for the tip. I'll see how it goes in working it in to my routine.
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby wpgtaiji » Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:02 pm

All this is well enough, but its incorrect! Fu Zhon Wen has it in his book, Yang taiji uses WEIGHTED turns! This shifting back to pivot the foot is some of the worst BS in the art, and is the reason that when you say to a martial artist, "I do taiji", you get laughed at.

pete or Dennis, i do not see 40 years of work there. I see barely one. THe brush knee sequence, you YIN the wrong foot, which shows no understanding of the application of brush knee NOR play the pipa. It is almost as if you, or your teacher, or worse, your teacher's teacher, picked up a book on taiji and thought "I can fool people with this", and started to teach people. It has happened before, and it will happen again. It is best that we educate ourselves so that we dont become one of those who falls victim to being conned.

Erle one time told me that he was very presently surprised with my progress, and sent me one page of corrections to work on. Some people misunderstand when they dont get corrections, thinking that they are on the right path. That shouldnt be the case. In fact, it is impossible to give correcting feedback on some people's form because there isnt a form there to correct.
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby brer_momonga » Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:12 am

Do you often practice your form with so many distractions? ;)
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby pete5770 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:19 am

brer_momonga wrote:Do you often practice your form with so many distractions? ;)


:? :?
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby pete5770 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:37 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:All this is well enough, but its incorrect! Fu Zhon Wen has it in his book, Yang taiji uses WEIGHTED turns!


Have to agree with you. Watched a video of his and he does do weighted turns.
However, also watched a video of Chen Man Ching and he appears to be a fan of shifting back.
I think there is more to it than simply watching a video though. Both men did it slightly differently. Why??? Prehaps it was not right or wrong of either of them. Maybe it was all about the intent of what they wanted to show or emphasize. Of course, we don't know really know why they did what they did.
In any case I've decided to unwrap my Wu style weighted turns and see just how it goes in Yang.
Something different to keep up the interest.
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Re: You've all been waithing for this

Postby wpgtaiji » Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:52 pm

pete5770 wrote:
wpgtaiji wrote:All this is well enough, but its incorrect! Fu Zhon Wen has it in his book, Yang taiji uses WEIGHTED turns!


Have to agree with you. Watched a video of his and he does do weighted turns.
However, also watched a video of Chen Man Ching and he appears to be a fan of shifting back.
I think there is more to it than simply watching a video though. Both men did it slightly differently. Why??? Prehaps it was not right or wrong of either of them. Maybe it was all about the intent of what they wanted to show or emphasize. Of course, we don't know really know why they did what they did.
In any case I've decided to unwrap my Wu style weighted turns and see just how it goes in Yang.
Something different to keep up the interest.

Why? Cheng manching was a fraud! LOL Ok, not quite, but close! He trained with Chenfu for a grand total of 6 months! Ever wonder why his form was short? It was all he learned! Much of his style, I see in your movement (which is totally flawed btw).

And actually, Fu wrote down what and WHY he did it! But all the rest presupposes that indeed, you are interested in actually learning taiji.
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