An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby Monsoon » Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:51 am

Well put... and I do hold my hand up to getting unnecessarily heated over the posts in this thread. So, if you will accept an apology in the spirit that it is offered...

Qi and energy, energy and qi? I see where you are coming from with this - especially regarding apparently incompatible terminology - but I am not sure that the two ARE the same thing. I did once, not now, maybe again later (who can tell? :D )

I am beginning to wonder if the focus on qi in the martial arts is really more about training efficiency of movement down to an individual muscle level or even closer. Much like in top level sports people the difference between players may not come down to skill but rather whoever has the best economy of movement. It's a thought, maybe not a great one, but there it is.

In TCM I wonder if that same efficiency at a small scale can enable people to do such things as 'vibrating palm' which would produce a noticeable effect I guess if the hands were laid on someone. Or maybe such fine control does something subtle to the body's own electromagnetic field?

I find the subject (TCM) a little confusing because my Mandarin is not great (despite having a Chinese wife!) and Qi literally means 'breath' and not 'energy', although when used in conjunction with other characters can relate to energy, not to mention a myriad of other nuances. It is well known to both TCM and Western science that methodological breathing can have health benefits.

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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby Dvivid » Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:08 am

I want to say "Nice job, folks!" to those of you trying to keep it civil. The purpose of the forum is discussion, even when it is a contentious subject.

The initial post about levitation is absurd, but for fun I will answer.

Yes, I believe everything that is commonly said about the affects of qigong. As for levitation, which is completely unrelated, I remain skeptical that human being can levitate. Miraculous beings however...

Regarding Qi in your body, and qi in the martial arts: the word translates to "energy". It does not need your interpretation. The concept is that with practice, we can feel the body's energy, and eventually the energy of other things outside of the body. We can cultivate our body's energy to a higher state than normal, which has health benefits of longevity, vitality, and increased strength. And, we can learn to use increased energy in martial arts (it is not only kinetic energy/alignment).

And from a Buddhist perspective: by keeping all channels open with correct alignment, quieting the conscious mind, and developing a sharp focus, we can transform the human body. The Buddha dharma does not lie.

The studies in America of how and why qigong works are slow and meticulous. Although qigong is 4,000 years old, with thousands of documents (empirical evidence) about how and why to practice, our Western skeptical minds (mine included) need proof. And it is coming. Qigong is the future of medicine, not the past. Psychoneuroimmunology and epigenetics will show that the mind and the choices you make control your immune system, your healing, and your longevity. Your beliefs and your lifestyle control which genes 'express'.

It is a complex issue, and difficult to understand in Western medical terms. But, I often say in my qigong classes, "We will not wait 100 years for the Western medical textbook to come out explaining how and why to practice meditation and moving meditation (qigong and tai chi), we practice now, and benefit in this lifetime."

Those who know, know.

A note: one problem with standardizing a study of qigong or tai chi, is that the results rely on the individuals' attitude, general health, and intention during their practice, as well as the qualifications of their teacher. Science has shown recently that if you believe something works, it works! Many people can study the same thing in class, or in a study, and have different results. Because it is truly a subjective experience.

In Boston, Ted Tkapchuk's work has moved from acupuncture to focusing on the placebo effect, and they found something very interesting. People get well, even when they know they are taking a placebo, and it is dose-dependent. Meaning, when they take more placebo, they get even better. The power of belief.

AND - regarding the other thread, about Doctors and Tai Chi and diabetes. In this forum, when someone has a serious ailment, we frequent posters say "Go to your Doctor". But we do not disparage them for asking for advice or alternative ways to deal with their symptoms or their ailment. You may know I did a Tai Chi video in 2006 with Lou Reed:
http://ymaa.com/publishing/dvd/internal/chen_taijiquan

Lou has diabetes, and he has become a serious Chen-style daily practitioner. He no longer uses insulin. He mitigates his symptoms with Tai Chi. When one understands HOW to do this, they empower themselves. It is best done with frequent monitoring with a Doctor of course.

Thinking (believing) that something is impossible will almost guarantee that it will be impossible for you.

We do not yet understand human energy. We are on the forefront of this study. Its up to you if you choose to believe that you can benefit from it or not. We cannot convince others.
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby wpgtaiji » Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:12 pm

nuts... lol

ok.. i used Energy, but not related to QI! I used the comparison of energy and "god" because i studied a comparison years ago (it was first done in 1990 or before) that argued that both science and theology are describing the same activities, but the symbols cause he people discussing the activities confusion, and as a result, conflict with each other. I didnt suggest that energy and qi were related.

Then, what i asked is for one to look at the activities related to QI to see what, if any activities are also discussed in western science. The leap is to let go of the symbols to get to the activities to see if the topic has already been scientifically determined. I would never be so bold as to suggest that these relations have already been found. I was only attempting to suggest an outlook to accomplish the goals.

funny how, through my suggestions, we get the same reaction that millions have had... yep. It seems there is no safe way of discussing theology :( :)
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby Monsoon » Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:59 pm

Regarding Qi in your body, and qi in the martial arts: the word translates to "energy". It does not need your interpretation.


The word 'qi' (氣) derives from characters for steam and rice. Literally it refers to breath/air, but the inclusion of the rice character is a food=life connection, suggesting that the composite character actually means life-breath. Now if you want to equate life-breath with energy that's your interpretation, but it remains just that... an interpretation. Chinese characters are slippery like that! :D

That's just a linguistic quibble, although it does point to the potential difficulties in expressing TCM theory in English.

EDIT: for the record, although I speak some Mandarin my fluency in the language does not equate to understanding the cultural subtext. I believe that nobody who is not born and raised in a particular culture will ever truly understand that culture's subtext.
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby Dvivid » Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:27 pm

A Chinese person named Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming explained to me how Chinese characters work in more detail (for about 12 years). He said that Chinese characters are not always literal, but they refer sometimes to a concept, rather than the items "pictured" in the character.

Before Qi was spelled with 'air/rice', it was spelled with "No fire", referencing harmony between kan and li, water and fire, a harmonized qi state. Later practitioners realized that they could be more specific about Qi, by discussing "upper-level qi", which is air in the lungs, (we inhale IONS all day. Energy.) and "lower-level qi" in the guts (we metabolize food and fat into energy all day.)

This is qi.

Read: http://ymaa.com/articles/basic-concepts-qi-and-qigong

wpg...did you just call me nuts?

Also, you said
I didnt suggest that energy and qi were related.


It doesn't matter what you suggest. The Chinese word for energy is Qi. THEY ARE ONE AND THE SAME. What part of this is so difficult to understand?

wpg - you did one bit right: we do not understand energy yet. Once you break atoms down to its sub-particles, scientists find energy and potentials are the base.

The nature of energy is transformation. It can be light, heat, electromagnetism...the human body is powered by SOME form of energy, which can be discussed in ancient qigong/Buddhist terminology, or is Westen chemical language, but the result is the same.

You are welcome to discuss theology. Is that what you were doing?! I thought this was Pete's thread about qigong, with a bizarre aside about levitation.

I agree science and theology ARE discussing the same activities. In fact, this week, some leading scientists are working with the Dalai Lama and his students bridging the gap. There's a lot of talk about Qi and human energy channels in there; sorry if that doesn't work with your world-view.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOpVrprggG0
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby Monsoon » Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:04 pm

The following touches both on what I wrote and a little on what Dr Yang taught to Dvivid. I offer it only as an example of how difficult it is to pin down Chinese graphs to a particular definition.


According to Shouwen 說文, the earliest etymological dictionary of graphs, the early character qi 气 depicted “cloud vapor” is consistent with the form of the character of oracle bone and bronze inscriptions. While the other graph 氣, also supported by Shouwen, emphasizes its rice component, then the third graph found in the “Circulating Qi Inscription” has a fire component replacing the rice. Looking at the graphs, the view “represents the nourishing vapors of boiling rice or grain. These vapors represent the nourishing powers of food that maintain life and human energy.” (Schwartz, Benjamin I. 1985. The World of Thought in Ancient China. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press.) Then again, the graph emphasizes the fire component, suggests Allan, “a prototypical image of clouds produced by sun on water or else of steam, that is, water vaporized by fire. Nevertheless, the qi that is the primary subject of the inscription is the human breath.” (Allan, Sarah. 1997. The Way of Water and Sprouts of Virtue. Albany: State University of New York Press) This “human breath,” or the fire component added qi graph may be a suggestive link to the fourth qi graph 炁, which indicates the “configured breath” in the Taoist esoteric practice, such as Inner Alchemy, or neidan 內丹 practice exclusively in the Taoist literature and practices.

[my underlining]

Aren't ancient languages fun! :D

Edit: There no evidence that any concept of qi existed in the Shang (1766-1122 BC), or early Zhou periods (1122-481BC). However, the frequent usage of qi can be easily traced back to the Warring State Period (481-221 BC). Leading us to conclude that discussions of qi that may be found (I haven't checked) in the Yi Jing (Book of Changes, 1122 BC) are much later additions.
Last edited by Monsoon on Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby Dvivid » Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:44 pm

Monsoon...my friend. The quoted American explanation of this Chinese concept is not correct.

This is a place where we must provide correct information to YMAA students, and the larger community. What you're saying is a common misunderstanding. Please don't confuse people.

The character you're trying to understand is a visualization of the "triple burner", with food below in the guts, and air above in the lungs. It is not only portraying the breath, but also the metabolic process, and both air and food are needed to generate metabolic energy.

I think a problem at the root of this understanding is that people want Qi to be some "other" kind of energy, a special energy, different from the energy in our cells. But it is not.
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby chh » Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:47 pm

I think another popular explanation is that while 氣 originally referred to steam (as rising from rice for instance), it came to mean 'invisible force' in the sense of energy in some of its various forms.

Of course 'qi' does mean energy in Chinese today and another sense of the word, or maybe a homophone, is used in the Chinese word for breath.

It doesn't really matter what 'qi' used to mean, or what it generally means in Chinese now. If we're having a discussion about why we do or don't have a confident belief in systems like qigong, what's at issue is the claims made about qi and whether they're supported by what we know about the world.

I'm using 'claims' in the scientific sense, not trying to suggest that they're outrageous. The claims I'm thinking of are ones like that you can gather qi from your environment by breathing and leading it through your feet, then store that qi in your lower abdomen, and then use your mind to send it through channels that are different from your veins and nerves to different spots in your body or someone else's body. Saying that 'qi' means energy has little bearing on any of that. Those claims are hard to test because they don't make measurable predictions as far as I understand, but I don't think it helps explain anything we've seen, either. We can measure forms of energy that enter the body through other mechanisms, are stored in other ways, and are converted and distributed in the body through other channels and by other mechanisms than what's laid out in qigong.

There are other claims about the observable effects of cultivating qi and leading qi with the mind, and those *should* be testable, but for reasons that Dvivid pointed out, it's actually not so easy.

This is all to say that there's no point in caring what 'qi' means in Chinese because it has nothing to do with whether or not you have a confident belief in qigong. As you might guess, my position is a lot like Monsoon's: that I don't have good evidence for or against the mechanism, but I've seen some possible support for the efficacy of qigong in therapeutic applications.

As Dvivid said, this is the moment when research on the topic is really exploding. With lots of well trained instructors and practitioners, and well designed research, we'll be best prepared to see contributions made to medical science and to qigong.
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby Monsoon » Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:58 pm

I'm sorry but it is not a 'common' misconception, it is a valid interpretation of variably referenced logogram.

The quoted American explanation of this Chinese concept is not correct.


Are you suggesting that nobody but a Chinese person could possibly understand these concepts? That's how this statement reads to me - a little pejorative.

However, it would be foolish of me to accept the pronouncements of any single authority, which is why I didn't say that Dr Yang was incorrect, only implied that translation/interpretations of these concepts have a certain fluidity.

I realise that you wish to defend you teacher, and that is laudable, but, with no disrespect to Dr Yang, I would have to see peer-led corroboration before accepting his version as the definitve one. Just being open-minded you see :)

I still practice qigong and taiji with a focus on qi cultivation and movement. I'm contrary like that :roll:
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby Dvivid » Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:15 pm

Healthy skepticism will help us to arrive at a place where we can find a bridge between this Chinese concept of qi-gong (energy work) and modern western scientific ideas about the energy in the human body. We are barely scratching the surface.

Monsoon - I won't argue. I agree we need to be open-minded on the topic. I only ask you to keep thinking. "Rice" has nothing to do with breath.

EDIT - one other thought. We tend to view these claims of qigong, such as leading energy into the body through the feet, or leading energy through channels that are so far unexplained by Western biophysics, as being wrong; "these ideas contradict modern science!" (I hear a lot)

But actually, I think there is no contradiction. When you look at this very complex issue from many sources of scientific information, you see the puzzle pieces fit together, and each confirms the other.

For instance, the human body has a bioelectromagnetic field. I hope we can agree on this. In fact, the human body IS a bioelectromagnetic field. That 'field' has constantly-ongoing energetic properties. It is in constant change, in harmony with the larger fields we are influenced by, namely the Earth we're standing on, the sun, etc...

In qigong, we are not trying to make some miraculous, new thing happen, and gain a magic power to lead energy through the feet. Instead, you can think of it as: we are paying attention to ongoing processes, and by placing our full intention on them, we use these processes to our advantage.

The same is true of other results of qigong practice, that are commonly known, like improved health, vitality, longevity, etc... in our qigong practice, we are sort of 'reverse-engineering' natural processes, and honing our skill in utilizing them.

Without any personal subjective practice time, and physical experience of the results, all of this sounds like theorized mumbo jumbo. But, when you do it correctly, and have these well-documented experiences, it becomes more clear.

I hope that helps.
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby Monsoon » Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:43 pm

"Rice" has nothing to do with breath.


Never said it did. It was the pairing of the two symbols (in the later version of the graph of qi) for rice and breath that give the possible interpretation of nourishing energy. Apparently some scholars say the earlier symbol that includes fire means 'containing fire' rather than 'no fire'.

I am amenable to other interpretations, but not just because someone says so. It has to be explained.

For instance, the human body has a bioelectromagnetic field. I hope we can agree on this. In fact, the human body IS a bioelectromagnetic field.


This is a very interesting statement, and one I wholeheartedly endorse (for what that is worth :roll: ). From a purely physics perspective energy and matter are, as we currently believe, aspects of the same 'thing', and this 'thing' is the only 'thing' that exists in our universe. When these 'things' are arranged in certain patterns they form apparent objects that we can describe in macroscopic terms - a cup, for instance - that embody further useful properties at the macroscopic level that we can take advantage of. We are one such pattern too.

The concepts raised by Dvivid touch directly onto the the buddhist notion of 'true nature'.

Makes my brain hurt quite frankly.
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby chh » Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:06 pm

I have to say this is the most amiable and constructive thread of this kind I've seen, which is nice to reflect on. I think I better understand some of the perspectives I didn't understand so well before, and have some more stuff I have to think about. It's going to take some thought to reconcile really prolific instructions like "use the mind to lead the qi" with an interpretation where qi isn't being directed by the mind from one place to another, but I didn't expect any of these concepts to be obvious without lots of study and practice. I don't know whether the thread got too far away from what you intended or not, Pete, but sorry if it did.
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby wpgtaiji » Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:56 pm

No, i did not call you nuts! it was a verbal expression, typed out! It means "OH SHOOT! A MISUNDERSTANDING!" And i know that some interpret qi as energy! But i didnt want to be the one to say that.
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby Dvivid » Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:02 am

That's cool. thanks for explaining.

Qi IS energy. People "interpreting" it otherwise are not qigong practitioners, or if they are, more time/effort (gong fu) needs to be invested in both practice and studying qigong theory.

More importantly...what IS energy?!

I highly recommend you guys watch this amazing dialogue from talks ongoing this week between the Dalai Lama and leading scientists from many different fields. One incredible section includes a description of the Buddhist way of thinking about things at the atomic level from 2,000 years ago!

Also includes discussion of Qi (winds) and acupuncture points (drops) and the energy centers (chakras).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzKKuPmk95g
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby Monsoon » Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:02 pm

Qi IS energy. People "interpreting" it otherwise are not qigong practitioners, or if they are, more time/effort (gong fu) needs to be invested in both practice and studying qigong theory.


That's a bit nasty. Everything is energy in one state or another. I was discussing the interpretation of the symbol for qi from a linguistic perspective. When I practice qigong or taiji then, for me, qi IS energy just like it is for you. I resent your implication that I am not a qigong practitioner just because I am willing to discuss alternative linguistic interpretations for an ancient chinese symbol which, it has to be said, has varying qualities pointed out by reputable academic scholars.

This is not a point you can sidestep or ignore by saying you will agreee to disagree. You have misjudged what I was saying.

I happen to be one of those that subscribes to the notion that all energy is a vibration of one sort or another.. However, I am still puzzled by this because for a vibration to exist there has to be a medium for it to exist in. A vacuum is not a medium in this sense.

Pushing the DL a bit hard aren't you? I wonder how many people are aware of the differences between Tibetan buddhist practices and those practiced elsewhere. The DL, while being a very nice man and an erudite one, doe not speak for all buddhists. He is not the world's buddhist leader in this sense.
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby Dvivid » Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:46 pm

Please don't be offended. Im only here as moderator on the YMAA forum to maintain a standard for YMAA students. Other opinions are welcome, but I have to be as clear as possible to help people, especially beginners, to avoid confusion.

Yes, I agree regarding your exploration of the challenge of transliteration, and the resulting problems, such as our miscommunication. I see the language issue as a separate topic, and I apologize we're butting heads on it. The various translations each make valid points, but when understood in context I think it is very clear, at least from a YMAA qigong theory perspective.

Im not repeating the YMAA qigong theory and want you people to believe it because "I said so". I am trying to be as clear as possible so that it is explained in a logical way we can all come to agreement about. Forgive me for failing in that regard, but that's my intention.

We are always gathering evidence from modern studies and corroborating it with the current theory.

My point Im trying to stick to is only to reiterate that qigong is commonly known as 'energy work', qi meaning 'energy' and 'gong' being short for gong fu 'effort/time'. Yes, we can describe the vital role breathing plays in qigong, and obviously life itself. But, people can get confused if you tell them that Qi means breath, and therefore we are only circulating, what, oxygen? Qigong becomes just stretching and breathing, without clear emphasis on the energy aspect (which is at the root of the definition of qigong, and all internal arts).

We inhale ions, not only air. Rather than arguing about the details, our goal is to help more people to discover qigong, understand it clearly, and spend time practicing.

Yes, we are still learning what 'type' of energy Qi is, and how to describe it by Western medical terminology, especially as it pertains to energy within the body.

I think we are 90% in the same thinking, but you are more open-minded regarding certain conclusions and terminology, and perhaps I am a bit more rigid in my beliefs.

I only offer the DL link so people can cross reference this conversation with the content of that related lecture.
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby Monsoon » Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:54 pm

:D

It is morning, the Hour of the Crocodile, and I was feeling a little snappy!

If any apology is required it should originate with me. It is incorrect for me to appear to be undermining Dr Yang's work - especially on a YMAA website.


Rather than arguing about the details, our goal is to help more people to discover qigong, understand it clearly, and spend time practicing.


100% agree. It is I that led this thread off this preferred track, not you, for which I also apologise.
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby Villicus » Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:58 pm

Interesting discussion. My father in law once told me that he saw someone levitate for several minutes. It was an old Catholic priest who was giving a lecture walking back and forth in a classroom and appeared to not even know it was happening. My father in law is a doctor and is not one to sensationalize anything, in fact he was very uncomfortable even talking about it. The old priest was asked about it later as it happened in front of about 40 men who were in attendance and he just laughed it off saying next time he would give the lecture standing still so they would stop watching his feet and pay more attention to what he was saying.
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby joeblast » Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:45 am

Monsoon wrote:I happen to be one of those that subscribes to the notion that all energy is a vibration of one sort or another.. However, I am still puzzled by this because for a vibration to exist there has to be a medium for it to exist in. A vacuum is not a medium in this sense.

All field interactions take place because there is an underlying substrate, a context, for field interactions to occur. Yes, even in "a vacuum." Miraculous 8)
Even in mildly complex systems, any outcome is the wrong thing to target, with the process being where the focus should be.
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby Dvivid » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:11 am

Joeblast - Not to be a broken record, but they discuss that at depth in those lectures I've been posting this week. Very thought-provoking (if you like that sort of thing).
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