An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby Monsoon » Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:36 pm

Indeed it is only a discussion. What disappoints me is when you (JoeBlast) make this kind of statement
feel free to mash my quotes up with yours, ignore any substantive point I have, and focus on the cracks - you are not interested in what I have to say, are you.
after I provided your original statement that was in response to one of mine. There was no 'mash up' as you call it. I merely quoted what I had said and how you had responded. If you look at your own post from which it came you will see this quite clearly.

I'm grasping because it appears that nobody with true ability seems to have been tested by Monsoon-approved testers with the correct Qi Gong® certified equipment?


Oh really? So the eyes that most people possess and use every day are now "Qi Gong® certified equipment"? Give me a break. I have repeatedly said that these phenomenon could be examined under the SIMPLEST of conditions and the mere observation of an overt event would most likely indicate a positive result. No extra equipment required. No special testers. Just transparency from beginning to end. Hell, I'll stand back and watch you lot run the whole thing, but it has to be transparent. No takers? Nah, thought not.

Incidentally did you notice this bit right here "... at the risk of being rude..."? This is a clear signal that I am aware of the potential of being accused of an ad hominem approach, and that I am making it clear that the following statement is actually a serious inquiry. Asking if someone has any professional experience is not an attack on the person, just a request for clarification.

I'm grasping because it appears that nobody with true ability seems to have been tested by Monsoon-approved testers with the correct Qi Gong® certified equipment?


Actually, you will find, if you bother to read around a bit, that nobody with true ability has EVER been tested under PROPERLY CONTROLLED CONDITIONS. It's nothing to do with me.

Show me one test under normal scientifically acceptable conditions that has demonstrated a positive result. Not MY conditions, but those set out by the scientific and academic community... but wait, of course, these science people are all in the conspiracy together /slaps forehead/ how could I forget.

I am interested in what you have to say, but you haven't said anything that hasn't been dismissed a zillion times by reputable people over the last 50 years (conservatively).

As to your substantive points... perhaps you would do me the kindness of pointing them out, because I am unable to discern which ones they are (I am quite serious about this).
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby wpgtaiji » Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:13 pm

Monsoon wrote:I'm going to agree with the first paragraph... the rest, not so much.

Regarding science and theology: these two are not comparable. Science is based around the testability of theories and is ultimately verifiable. Theology springs entirely (IMO) from the mind of man and is thus not verifiable. Apples and bananas.

If you attempt to detect water using devices to detect CO2, you wont find anything either, but it doesnt mean that CO2 doesnt exist... or maybe it does.


All this means is that you are using the wrong tool for the job based on a lack of understanding of what you are using the tool to measure. It doesn't have much relevance beyond that. In the infamous Chang video the tool used was a $15 voltmeter that was not designed for the type of output that Chang's hidden generator produced. It is not surprising that it did not detect anything, much like in your analogy.

The problem with people like Chang is that everything they do can be replicated by trickery or deception. The onus is not on us to prove how they did it (we can already show that), but for them to prove that they did it in a different way to our non-paranormal methods. Not a single claimant has ever been able to do this.

A scientist must draw specific conclusions from this. A theologian can make up their own stories to suit themselves.

mate, i know you disagree! You are predictable in that respect! And i have no comment on chang! Dont care who he is. I leave that to the immortals to discuss.

As to your separation of theology and science, maybe you should look at the ex-German, Werner von Braun, or, better known as the "Father of our modern Space program". After all his research in studying the math/science of the universe, he basically found God. In fact, he had the scientific nerve to suggest that theology and science study the exact same power. Science studies that power (they call energy) around the human being, while theology, in all its forms, studies that power within the human being. It is the exact same stuff (if you look at the definitions of energy and "god" - for example, "100% evenly distributed everywhere" or omnipresent). And this is from the man who launched rockets into space and could time their return within fractions of a second.

My point though, which is missed on your analytic mind, is that, maybe, science and TCM have already discussed QI, they just use different symbols to discuss the topic. That was the point of the study water comment (i thought it was obviously a sarcastic comment. Oh well).

If you go looking, with science terms, you will not see QI. If you look at TCM with chinese terms, you wont see energy (you see QI). Think on this!

I know i am wasting my time! Monsoon knows everything! After all, he's in the "field" and he's here patrolling for clients! :P
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby Monsoon » Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:40 am

Oh I got your point alright, it wasn't very well made and didn't really require additional sniping! I'm not interested in who Chang IS either, but in what he claims to be able to do. You see the difference, surely?

I agree on some things and disagree on others? How unreasonable and predictable of me.

Bringing in von Braun is disingenuous and a bit ridiculous. I have personally known many scientists who are devoutly religious. They have no difficulty in reconciling the two, but on the occasions when I asked them if they believed God was just another term for the Universal energy field they were emphatic that this was not the case. So, who wants to play 'my scientist can beat up your scientist'?

If you go looking, with science terms, you will not see QI. If you look at TCM with chinese terms, you wont see energy (you see QI). Think on this!


See the thing is, I didn't go looking at all. I was merely addressing the lack of any proper experimental conditions. I happen to believe in qi... I BELIEVE IN QI. You getting that? I cannot prove it, and it worries me that it has never been proven to exist, but I still believe in it, even if that is irrational.

I know i am wasting my time! Monsoon knows everything! After all, he's in the "field" and he's here patrolling for clients!


Yeah, whatever floats your boat, pal. If anything is predictable on this forum it is the manner of your responses. As an aside, if I may ask, what is your professional background?
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby wpgtaiji » Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:16 am

mate, i cannot help you. You know everything, and are trapped by all you know. i have seen it before. Everything has to fit, and if it doesnt, it isnt real. But mate, ill let you in on the secret that real scientists have known since the field started: Its all just a guess! NONE of it is real! It is all just a bunch of guesses that seem to work. No one really knows what the hell it all is. And when they do think they know, something happens, and it doesnt again! All that said, some of the guesses have been VERY good! But we still dont know WHAT ELECTRICITY IS or what its purpose actually is. We dont even know what "atoms" are! We have ideas, but not facts! The most fundamental is Energy! No one can say exactly what it is, why it is here. We dont even understand how exactly it works. Yet, people say "Qi is this" or "qi is that", really?

When someone throws "science hasnt proved it" at me, i laugh! those are people with no self esteem and they need to show superiority by hiding behind "facts". Its a joke!

If you havent guessed already, i used the water example 2 previous because, maybe, since western science hasnt looked for qi, that we dont have instruments to detect it (a CO2 detector wont detect water, will it, even though they both have O in them). In science, you must have an open mind, otherwise, people waste lifetimes on non-essential studies.

I mean this man, good luck with things. Let go a bit from your "rules". they arent real! You made them! You can live by other rules which wont restrict you so much. Looking foolish is ok! Being misunderstood is PERFECTION! it means you are moving in the right direction. If people always understand what you put, then you arent growing. Hell, on this forum, i have said stuff that people are still scratching their heads about, calling me insane! Its their problem! Its OK!
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby Monsoon » Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:57 am

Hardly.

If I tell you go and jump off a cliff (and I'm tempted believe me!) on the basis of 'just a guess' would you seriously consider trying it? Of course not. You would want a bit more reassurance that it was safe. In the abstract sense you are right. Science does not prove anything. What it does do though is show through repeatability that certain things can be relied on. If this were not the case then we could not live the way we do. Nobody would travel in any type of vehicle, or accept any form of surgery.

By the way, things don't have a 'purpose' as far as I understand it (which admittedly may not be very far :D ). For me, things simply are what they are.

On the question of qi though I never said we needed a 'qi-meter', only that what had been used was inappropriate. I never suggested anything else. What I did say though was that people who profess to use qi claim very specific physical effects. These effects are measurable with mundane tools. No effects have ever been measured, under controlled conditions, that could be attributed to something a claimant says they can do. It is that simple. Based on the extreme lack of any evidence whatsoever a prudent scientist must conclude that there is nothing to test. Ultimately it is a bit like religion. There is no actual evidence for God and yet many people are still fanatical believers.

I generally don't live by many rules, beyond those for being a decent human (I hope), except when involved in actual research. Then I have little choice in the matter. In those cases the rules are not there to dissuade but to make sure there is as little misunderstanding as possible.

You don't really know anything about me at all. In my workplace I am the one asks all the apparently absurd questions. Most of the time they are absurd too, but every once in a while someone says "hey, have we really thought this through?"

This thread started with someone's thoughts on qi. Even though I am sceptical (extremely so in fact) from a scientific perspective, I am still an adherent of qigong and taijiquan, and try to promote them to anybody who will listen.

So you see, I am not sure of any of this stuff. What I am sure of though is that claimants of paranormal abilities have never been able to demonstrate them under controlled conditions. Never. That fact alone speaks volumes both about the claims and the people making them.

As for...

When someone throws "science hasnt proved it" at me, i laugh! those are people with no self esteem and they need to show superiority by hiding behind "facts". Its a joke!


... a judgement without any qualification whatsoever. And you think I am closed-minded.

Pot/Kettle/Black
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby pete5770 » Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:31 am

joeblast wrote:...........Randi is a zealot in his anti-qi belief and he is just looking to prove it doesnt exist, he is not an objective scientist that would be perfectly happy with either result.



I think your error here is that no one can prove something DOESN'T exist, and I would bet that this Randi person knows that.
The burden of proof must be shouldered by the people claiming that it does exists(whatever IT is). Sort of like a court of law, if you accuse someone of something it's up to you to prove it. Simply saying it's true is not enough.
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby wpgtaiji » Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:35 am

monsoon, it must really suck to live without the great motivator of all things. I have no idea how you do it, but i commend your effort. To live without any connection, without any sense of being a part of something... no wonder.

As to proof of "god", mate, you really struggle to see the forest for the trees!

Here is a challenge for you: before you post ONE MORE WORD, make a flower. Simple enough for one so "right"! Just make a flower that no one has ever seen before. One that grows and reproduces itself without human contact. I DARE YOU TOO! :) Oh right! WE CAN'T! Why? because we arent THAT power! We arent the CREATIVE POWER (what scientists call Energy) of the Universe1 That is the job of THAT power! We have a different job!

All i was saying is that the ACTIVITIES of energy and god are identical. The only differences are in the symbols that different people have attached to them. That is why i asked you for the activities or processes of QI, so that, by looking at what the TCM doctor's say about it, you can start to look for western science's activities that match! That you have deprived yourself of all this makes me feel sad.

That you want to argue or call people down in long, useless drivel shows something. Good luck with your search mate. I have said the same thing 3 or 4 times now. It obviously isnt sinking in, so again, i am wasting my time on this. Good luck and GOD bless.
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby wpgtaiji » Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:37 am

ignore pete. he has no clue about any clue about anything. he argues for the sake of arguing and hasnt had a rational thought on this topic for 6 months or more.
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby chh » Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:07 pm

wpgtaiji, here's an article about people who made a new organism. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 41984.html

I can't really touch the fact that you think you know what 'our job' is- that's fine, but it's dimensions away from how I see the world so I can't share that perspective. On the other hand it's definitely true that people are capable of making new organisms. Check it out!
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby pete5770 » Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:17 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:ignore pete. he has no clue about any clue about anything. he argues for the sake of arguing and hasnt had a rational thought on this topic for 6 months or more.


I'm thinking you need to be a bit more subtle in your trolls. Ya get better results that way. :wink:
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby wpgtaiji » Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:21 pm

$40 MILLION! so that is creation? THINK!!

I didnt ask to have a flower produced in a lab. I asked to create a flower! I guess the qualifier would be WHERE YOU ARE RIGHT NOW with no cash in! LOL Thanks for the chuckles!
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby wpgtaiji » Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:23 pm

pete5770 wrote:
wpgtaiji wrote:ignore pete. he has no clue about any clue about anything. he argues for the sake of arguing and hasnt had a rational thought on this topic for 6 months or more.


I'm thinking you need to be a bit more subtle in your trolls. Ya get better results that way. :wink:

pete, trolling is unfounded statements made. I have TONS of founded statements made by you of your ignorance on this topic. The troll is in your mirror.
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby pete5770 » Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:34 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:
pete5770 wrote:
wpgtaiji wrote:ignore pete. he has no clue about any clue about anything. he argues for the sake of arguing and hasnt had a rational thought on this topic for 6 months or more.


I'm thinking you need to be a bit more subtle in your trolls. Ya get better results that way. :wink:


pete, trolling is unfounded statements made. I have TONS of founded statements made by you of your ignorance on this topic. The troll is in your mirror.


Subtle, subtle. Turn it down just a notch.
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby Monsoon » Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:17 pm

Evolution did not make a new flower 'just like that', and neither can we... yet! Mind you, evolution is spectacularly misunderstood even by those who support it. Evolution is not a thing, not a process and has no purpose. It is only a record of observable change. You really need to think about that quite hard. People tend to think that evolution is moving toward some goal or another, and that is just plain wrong. There is no goal, no design. Environmental conditions change, random mutations occur. Those that offer some advantage in the prevailing environment tend to survive. Even those that are less advantaged actually continue to survive for quite a long time (whole epochs even).

We are humans and we have self-centric interests (naturally so). Take global warming (as it came up earlier). Why do people think GW is a bad thing? It's not inherently bad, it's just that we perceive it will be bad for us humans. The world has gone through stages of warming and cooling that dwarf any effect that WE may have on it. Our species will cope and survive or not. We will fight, it is true, but if conditions change to be unsupportable for humans there will be little we can do about it. In this sense GW campaigns are a dead end.

monsoon, it must really suck to live without the great motivator of all things. I have no idea how you do it, but i commend your effort. To live without any connection, without any sense of being a part of something... no wonder.


But you are intent on insulting me. It may interest you to know that I am a practising buddhist. Of course I couldn't possibly sense any connection between myself and the rest of the universe, could I? After all, contemplation of the inter-being of all things is just a game for buddhists. As for 'great motivator', the Universe is my motivator /walks away shaking head in quiet wonder


Ps: Your arrogance exceeds your common sense, don't presume to tell me who to ignore and who to engage with.
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby caesar » Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:01 pm

Oh my...am I totally lost or is this discussion going towards that an atheist doesn't have a purpose, is unmotivated...or is sad anyway? :D

Greetings from caesar,
an atheist.
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby pete5770 » Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:30 pm

caesar wrote:Oh my...am I totally lost or is this discussion going towards that an atheist doesn't have a purpose, is unmotivated...or is sad anyway? :D

Greetings from caesar,
an atheist.


It isn't of consequence if someone tells you whether or not you do or don't have a purpose. Last time I checked we all live, mostly, in a world that allows you to believe in what you will(again mostly :wink: ). As for believing in Gods or not, I wouldn't worry what others think about that either. None of their business and they just think they have the key to salvation(for lack of a better word). Of course, by admitting that you're an atheist you've got to realize that doing so sort of opens the door for the people who will want to "save" you. Not that they don't have good intentions and they most likely believe they are doing the right thing but most seem to overstep their bounds. In the end only you know what you need.
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby Monsoon » Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:50 pm

No, caesar, none of it was against atheists. The word 'purpose' is a really loaded term in these discussions as it implies design. For the theists - God designs, for the non-theists - evolution is random and without design.

Individuals can make their own minds up on this of course.

As for wpgtaiji, I am reminded of the old saying

"You cannot reason someone out of position they didn't reason themselves into"

An awful lot of forum space is taken up not by people who wish to thrash ideas around, but by people trying to convince others that their view is the right and only view. Bias swings both ways - wpgtaiji is as rabidly biased toward his own opinion as he thinks I am toward mine.
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby caesar » Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:42 am

Well I wasn't actually reverring to you but the claims of "sucking to live without the great motivator of all things." and "being part" and stuff are often ways to question atheism. But I believe I misread/misunderstood the points this time so my bad.
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby Monsoon » Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:31 am

Caesar, you didn't misunderstand anything :D

The other guy is indeed talking about how he has this 'great motivator' in his life, and it does indeed sound like a religious thing. I have no problem with that in itself. Wherever people draw personal strength or motivation is of only a passing interest really.

And despite his protestations he repeatedly refuses to answer any requests for information, and clearly does not actually read other posts properly. A case in point is my stance on qi. I practice qigong and taiji every single day - despite the lack of science to back it up. I don't have any issue in holding both perspectives at the same time. And I have reiterated this on a number of occasions. Obviously he fails to understand the words or chooses to ignore them in some ridiculous attempt to shoehorn me into one camp. He is a polariser.

Kind of reminds of the Westboro baptists quite frankly.
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Re: An explanation of my beliefs(and maybe yours)

Postby wpgtaiji » Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:41 pm

My intent wasnt to claim that qi was GOD! Or to make it a religious discussion! I only brought up that idea to point out that, if one looks at the activities and ignores the symbols other people have attached to said activities, things look different. If you look at QI, which is a TCM idea from the point of view of western science, of course you will struggle to connect things. They use different terminology and symbols!

It is my view that these symbols are what is causing the difficulties! I did not mean to side track or suggest that QI had anything to do with religion. I was using metaphors, obviously not good ones, that utterly failed. :)

That is one of the risks in dealing with this format and some folks attracted to this format. I tend to not use the literal all that much, preferring to present ideas. I guess this format doesnt work with that sort of thing! :)

Good for you guys though! An off topic discussion is lots of fun! LOL
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