Web based instruction.

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Re: Web based instruction.

Postby yat_chum » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:03 am

2. The first purpose of training in a martial art is to become an excellent fighter.


"it is easy to learn how to fight you don't have to learn ngo cho for that" "to fight just pick up a knife, any weapon or better a gun, attack your enemy in the dark or ambush him", "why learn ngo cho?"
The late Master Lo King Hui
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Re: Web based instruction.

Postby yat_chum » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:14 am

"Wushu" Stop the weapon skill

http://ymaa.com/netcasts/episode1
In this episode, Dr. Yang introduces the various definitions of Chinese Martial Arts, from the term "Ji Ji" dated 300 B.C., to the more recent and common ones, "Gong Fu" and "Wushu"
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Re: Web based instruction.

Postby yat_chum » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:27 am

“Avoid before check.
Check before maim.
Maim before kill.
Do not kill.”
The opening mantra of the first style of Kungfu I was exposed to.
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Re: Web based instruction.

Postby Josh Young » Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:35 pm

Well, i can say i have fought a lot and that fighting and learning to issue and direct energy of violence is a huge part of martial training.

One cannot claim to be a martial artist if one is incapable of dealing with a fight, however there is the concept that a fighter is one who fights, encourages fighting or is willing to fight in general, this is one i disagree with.

I'd like to point out that a lot of 'arena fighting' in the past had no rules... people died. China used to have tournaments that resulted in many deaths. The old Brazilian Vale Tudo is noteworthy, the translation of the term implies 'anything goes' these fights were eventually stopped because they were so bloody and violent, people did get maimed.

I've seen a grappler who could lock and break an arm about as fast as a punch can be thrown, some people out there have a very high level of skill. For any grappler to say he can beat any blackbelt is naive, but the reverse is also true. People should not ignore that percussion based striking is commonly found in grappling arts, to suggest they do not train to use or counter strikes is kind of naive.

To base a method upon percussion perhaps ignores other aspects of striking that are not percussive, such as issuing and transmitting force through contact.

from a deep and excessively wide (nearly immobile) square horse stance they shot their left hand straight out in front of them as if grabbing somebody by the throat, then with loud screams, lifted the hand in three increments and then, when their outstretched hand was far above their head, seemed to do a double eye jab with the fingers of their other hand. My students looked at me with wide eyes and said, “They can’t be doing what I think!” When we got back to the school, I handed the strongest of my students a 35 LB dumbbell and said, “Do that move.” He could not lift it as they did with his arm outstretched. I said, “That move of theirs might be effective if one were fighting a 15 LB baby in diapers. That is why we test what we do and keep to strict principles of sound physics.

to think that the energy of the strike is perpendicular to the plane of the strike ignores the basic physics, while an outstretched arm is weak in a plant perpendicular to it, it is nevertheless incredible strong in the plane of the arm. the test with the 35lb weight shows a basic failure to understand the physics of the strike which relates to the fulcrum and the line of the transmission of force, the issued force is not perpendicular nor is it transmitted by the extremity in a vertical direction, it is linear.

but then to use or rely upon muscular force to issue a strike is ignorant of the most powerful and effective force a person has, momentum. to rely upon an arm to strike with is very weak, if you use the whole body to strike through the arm, using the hips as the driving force behind a torsional movement, and the arm is relaxed and not stiff with tension, then far more force is transmitted and in a far more efficient manner than if the arm was used on top of a sturdy stance. however such mistakes in motion are commonplace in karate and nearly totally absent for wushu. short jin/jing energy strikes are good example, i can shake with an incredible amount of force and put that force into any limb and make it into a strike or an energy issuance with a lot of kinetic force. I could never strike so hard and fast if I used my arm strength.

I know many fighters, street fighters, and yes they have friends that will kick you when you are down on the ground. Several of them have not lost a fight, but they are by no means martial artists. A few of them were enforcers for a biker gang in Las Vegas, they are retired now, but still violent. the point is I know several masterful fighters who would never claim to have any virtue.

I have very high standards for the use of physics, philosophy and physiology in martial arts training and cannot say i am impressed by the content yet. I would like some proof of concept demonstrations.
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Re: Web based instruction.

Postby John the Monkey mind » Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:42 pm

yat_chum wrote:“Avoid before check.
Check before maim.
Maim before kill.
Do not kill.”
The opening mantra of the first style of Kungfu I was exposed to.


Yes this is a good set of rules for living with martial arts. I really would try to avoid a fight other than defending myself or someone else or maybe even my goods from theft. The problem is to apply this you must be stronger than your opponent. Avoid is good if you can but that can be hard sometimes.

To check an opponent though you need to be more powerful than them. This is why I think as a martial artist you have to be able to fight. If not you will be unable to choose to not harm an opponent, you will fight them at the intensity they dictate, you may have to harm them or they may harm you. Neither option sounds good to me. I want to be the one to chose if people will get hurt. I can be certain how far I will take things and that is unlikely to be to far but have little trust that they would be as restrained with me.

Given the above martial arts to me have to be about having the capability to fight first. Then I can end fighting.
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Re: Web based instruction.

Postby John the Monkey mind » Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:01 pm

Josh Young wrote:
from a deep and excessively wide (nearly immobile) square horse stance they shot their left hand straight out in front of them as if grabbing somebody by the throat, then with loud screams, lifted the hand in three increments and then, when their outstretched hand was far above their head, seemed to do a double eye jab with the fingers of their other hand. My students looked at me with wide eyes and said, “They can’t be doing what I think!” When we got back to the school, I handed the strongest of my students a 35 LB dumbbell and said, “Do that move.” He could not lift it as they did with his arm outstretched. I said, “That move of theirs might be effective if one were fighting a 15 LB baby in diapers. That is why we test what we do and keep to strict principles of sound physics.

to think that the energy of the strike is perpendicular to the plane of the strike ignores the basic physics, while an outstretched arm is weak in a plant perpendicular to it, it is nevertheless incredible strong in the plane of the arm. the test with the 35lb weight shows a basic failure to understand the physics of the strike which relates to the fulcrum and the line of the transmission of force, the issued force is not perpendicular nor is it transmitted by the extremity in a vertical direction, it is linear.


I could be wrong but I think he was implying that the move involved lifting your opponent by the neck from a fully extended grab from a square horse stance position. If that was what they were doing that is more than a bit stupid and lifting a 35lb weight with a fully outstretched arm is a suitably comical analogy. I dont think he was talking about the previous or subsequent strike.

I think the weight was to test this bit of the display "as if grabbing somebody by the throat, then with loud screams, lifted the hand in three increments and then when their outstretched hand was far above their head," This movement described is a vertical lift of a considerable weight. I don't see how that would work unless you relied on them moving themselves due to presser. Not from an extender position like that and a square stance. You would have to move your body to generate that type of force by getting closer.

Still not all moves in static forms are applied from a static stance. That type of display is almost always more showmanship than art.

I tend to agree about not generalizing when talking of jujitsu I don't doubt some players are competent but then their training would differ from sports MMA training. One of my Wing Chun instructors told me of his friend who was into jujitsu and gave MMA a go, however he quit after wining his first fight as it took to long and he knew he could have finished it with a break quickly. He feared training for the cage would undermine his real world skill he had worked so hard to develop and valued them more than minor glory in the ring.

Also as for fighters one of the best fighters I have ever seen was sadly very unethical and heavily abused his skill. Still that is not to say he might not have been better if he had lived a more positive life. A lot of bad things came his way in life and that undermined his later development as a martial artist. Still a very dangerous fighter, he once told me if he lost a fight he would have to come back with a hammer later at night or he would never clear his head.

There are people out there with no ethics. I have strong ethics but to me being willing to fight only comes around if I cant walk away. If I have to fight and I cant talk my way out of it then so be it. I doubt any words would ever push me to violence, only violent action.
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Re: Web based instruction.

Postby Windrider » Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:46 pm

Okay. The term "round posture" threw me off.

We have internal/external movements and strikes, but in the end it is nearly impossible to separate them. Our waterfist concept is a zero inch punch (strike) that is quite effective. I used to knock people out with it when I was a street cop. I did that because it is difficult and dangerous to try to handcuff a larger stronger man who is fighting with you. And because it left no marks and could not be seen. Bystanders would often say, "What happened?" because they could not see any hit. I would just say, "I think he passed out," then get the cuffs on him as fast as possible before he would wake up and start fighting again. LOL!

In the beginning, Karate and KF have many similar basics, but in the end they are not all that similar. Very little of what I studied for all those decades was Karate. I did so only in the very beginning. The human body only has so many optimal ways to transfer the force. A reverse punch is nearly universal to every style on earth. Should we not use it just because most styles of Karate do?

Our internal system is not much like the typical internal systems out there, but it works at a miraculous level.

Yes, the military does teach some useless hand to hand garbage (several of my sons who served were shocked at what utter garbage it is). But the SEALs don't. Their training is percussion. (shrug) I am not interested in convincing anyone to abandon what they love, but somebody asked me a question about OUR ground fighting and I answered it honestly. I am already aware that grappling has been "proven to be superior" in the gaming arena with its restrictive rules made to protect the grapplers. Again: I don't care about sports, games and protective rules. Just not interested. I don't have anything to prove and I would never hurt another human being for money or pride. Never have. Never will.
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Re: Web based instruction.

Postby Windrider » Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:49 pm

"I could be wrong but I think he was implying that the move involved lifting your opponent by the neck from a fully extended grab from a square horse stance position. If that was what they were doing that is more than a bit stupid and lifting a 35lb weight with a fully outstretched arm is a suitably comical analogy. I dont think he was talking about the previous or subsequent strike."

No, sir. You are not wrong. That is exactly what I was saying.
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Re: Web based instruction.

Postby Windrider » Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:23 am

2. The first purpose of training in a martial art IS to become an excellent fighter.

But it is not the ultimate purpose or the only purpose, or none of us would keep doing it for long, as all of you gentlemen well know. Right?
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Re: Web based instruction.

Postby Josh Young » Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:59 pm

I could be wrong but I think he was implying that the move involved lifting your opponent by the neck from a fully extended grab from a square horse stance position. If that was what they were doing that is more than a bit stupid and lifting a 35lb weight with a fully outstretched arm is a suitably comical analogy. I dont think he was talking about the previous or subsequent strike.

it involves offsetting the opponent with linear force, not lifting them with force perpendicular to the plane, it can be done as a strike in this manner, hence the incremental aspects, but what appears to be a vertical lift is not going to be a vertical lift, ask the people doing the demo for the application information for this, or try it with a heavy bag for yourself but don't use perpendicular energy, try it with linear energy and see how it works for you

I am already aware that grappling has been "proven to be superior" in the gaming arena with its restrictive rules made to protect the grapplers

not really, there are no grappling arena arts lacking percussion these days, but in the old days of Vale Tudo there were bascially no rules and the so called grappling arts held their own just fine, though a lot of people got maimed, broken bones were common. Likewise if you do a takedown on a solid floor there is no going to the ground because it knocks the person out or breaks them.
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Re: Web based instruction.

Postby Windrider » Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:51 pm

"it involves offsetting the opponent with linear force, not lifting them with force perpendicular to the plane, it can be done as a strike in this manner, hence the incremental aspects, but what appears to be a vertical lift is not going to be a vertical lift, ask the people doing the demo for the application information for this, or try it with a heavy bag for yourself but don't use perpendicular energy, try it with linear energy and see how it works for you"

Were you there at the same demo watching what I watched, sir? Did you hear their response when I asked them what they were doing? Do you know the form and what it is called? Do you even know what style they practice?

No. You were not there. You did not see. You did not hear. You know none of this. Yet you argue and argue about what you don't know.

What THEY TOLD ME they were doing is EXACTLY what I described in my original post. Somehow you have latched onto some erroneous conclusion you have jumped to, and continue to defend that indefensible error.

I cannot understand how you keep on arguing that what you imagine in your head is somehow more correct than what I saw with my own eyes and what they confirmed by describing it to me in perfectly explicit detail.

Believe what you wish, my good man, but I am done arguing with you about your fantasies.
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Re: Web based instruction.

Postby Windrider » Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:11 pm

There are 46 throws in our system. About half of them are designed to break the person's neck as he hits the ground. We usually kick or stomp them once they are down, but we do not drop to the ground and flop around with them. We have fought grapplers MANY times, often even under their protective rules... we still trashed EVERY SINGLE ONE of them quite handily. Perhaps we were just lucky 100% of the time. If so, I hope our luck holds out.

But, as you insist, grappling, blah blah, superior, blah blah, deadliest, blah blah, broken bones, blah blah blah!

Okay, man: "I am a wimp. My style sucks. We are the ultimate pansies. We would never stand a chance against a guy who wants to wrestle around on a padded mat under controlled conditions. I have no idea what I am talking about. Wrestling is always deadlier than clobbering somebody. My knuckles are actually made of marshmallow. Swords were really made to capture and trap people rather than cut them. Your imagination is more accurate than anything anyone has ever experienced. A fishnet is deadlier than a bullet. Everything I have ever seen was just an illusion. A spear is just a trapping device used to make people 'tap out' in war. My decades of experience were all in my head. Cops are stupid to hit people with clubs when grappling fails. All our wins were actually losses. Up is down and sideways is straight ahead! And I am, of course, just an uneducated moron."

There. Do you feel better now?
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Re: Web based instruction.

Postby Windrider » Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:24 pm

In the gaming arena one finds gamers playing their games. A serious war artist does not consider his art a sport or a game. He is not training for games or showmanship. Nor is he desperate to prove to everyone that he is the best there is.

The worlds of gaming and serious war art study are oil and water. And, yes, a chess player certainly could stick a rook in your eye and blind you... but I wouldn't put much faith in chess as a war art.

Different people are in it for different reasons. It's amazing that anyone could fail to understand that.
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Re: Web based instruction.

Postby Josh Young » Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:16 pm

What THEY TOLD ME they were doing is EXACTLY what I described in my original post. Somehow you have latched onto some erroneous conclusion you have jumped to, and continue to defend that indefensible error.

your original post contains no such information that you were told what the application was, in fact you never shared their explanation, their form or the name of the technique, my conclusions are based entirely upon your description, if i am at fault it is because of the source of my information is.

But, as you insist, grappling, blah blah, superior, blah blah, deadliest, blah blah, broken bones, blah blah blah!

I merely mentioned that it is a proven effective system in combat without riles and that it does not lack percussion, but you insist upon putting words in my mouth like deadliest and superior. Your demeanor and the quality of your personality are a reflection of your art, again something lacking skills i can respect.

"I am a wimp. My style sucks. We are the ultimate pansies. We would never stand a chance against a guy who wants to wrestle around on a padded mat under controlled conditions. I have no idea what I am talking about. Wrestling is always deadlier than clobbering somebody. My knuckles are actually made of marshmallow. Swords were really made to capture and trap people rather than cut them. Your imagination is more accurate than anything anyone has ever experienced. A fishnet is deadlier than a bullet. Everything I have ever seen was just an illusion. A spear is just a trapping device used to make people 'tap out' in war. My decades of experience were all in my head. Cops are stupid to hit people with clubs when grappling fails. All our wins were actually losses. Up is down and sideways is straight ahead! And I am, of course, just an uneducated moron."

you are very sensitive aren't you?
I like your mentioning you would use a certain strike on suspects when you were a cop because:
it left no marks and could not be seen. Bystanders would often say, "What happened?" because they could not see any hit. I would just say, "I think he passed out,"

Strike a suspect and lie about it?

I really find your expertise questionable and your own admittance of your dishonesty is not something that lends itself to your credibility. I get it, you are the super-cop Bruce Lee making your new ultra-ultimate martial art that can beat anybody anytime. You are an ex-cop kung-fu expert school founder. I realize you are twice as tough as Chuck Norris now, All that and you are an author too! Wow.
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Re: Web based instruction.

Postby Josh Young » Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:28 pm

Windrider wrote:In the gaming arena one finds gamers playing their games. A serious war artist does not consider his art a sport or a game. He is not training for games or showmanship. Nor is he desperate to prove to everyone that he is the best there is.

The worlds of gaming and serious war art study are oil and water. And, yes, a chess player certainly could stick a rook in your eye and blind you... but I wouldn't put much faith in chess as a war art.

Different people are in it for different reasons. It's amazing that anyone could fail to understand that.


War games, think about it. You say a war artist doesn't game, but seriously how many training exercised are just that? Even for 'peace officers'
Sportsmanship has been a major part of war for thousands of years, back in days when war meant using hand held weapons against eachother. Even back then a code of conduct was routine, so was competitive training. Chess itself is based upon war and is a game of strategy. Musashi was a strategist, in his own terms no less.
Ever do a training game with airsoft guns and paintballs to train for swat? SWAT teams use games to train.

As for Musashi, his 'games', his 'matches' resulted in over 30 deaths.
Brag all you want about how perfect your new Mixed Martial Art is, i am still waiting for a proof of concept that isn't a work of fiction about a made up character and filled with "blah blah blah" type theory about speed and principals.

basically, Mr, Wind the way you dismiss other styles is the same as me saying that if any of your students ever loses a fight, then your system is a joke full of garbage moves, that is how you seem to be addressing arts involving grappling and arts that dare to test their skills in combat with honor, that is combat with rules.

throw away honor if you want, you must think it is a flamboyant and worthless thing anyway, with no real place in battle, it is all for show right?
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Re: Web based instruction.

Postby John the Monkey mind » Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:12 am

I feel that a good martial artist can potentially beat you using any style. I despise capoeira and would never practise it but I do not say it is impossible that one of the players would beat me. I can see big limitations in grappling but do not doubt some or even a lot of grapplers can take me down one on one even with no rules. But as far as no rules fights of the last 100 years go, they did have one rule. One on one. That in itself is a large assumption in real life.
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Re: Web based instruction.

Postby John the Monkey mind » Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:39 am

I have known grappler of little ability to arrantly assume they can beat traditional martial artists because they don't rule the UFC. I could see a good striker beating a lot of local big mouths on the mat. Still it is best to avoid such things I guess.

Although I would like to spar with a few more grapplers an hope that I will get the chance I will avoid getting into a slanging match with them if I can. I hope I can improve my take down defence and movement on the ground and contact with them seems a way to do this if only to test what I think I know against it. Still if I am easily handled I will not feel to bad or consider what I know as worthless but think how to do differently next time.

As Josh said strategy is a factor in fighting and rock beats scissor and scissors paper. I guess my objection to ground fighting is if I was to fight a grappler I may easily lose if he is very good, however if I have just one weak friend with me I don't see it ending that way unless he has a good base in striking as well. It pays to be balanced and some ground fighters lose that in rhetoric and act in a way that is infuriating. Still we can all do that and I don't doubt I can irritate others at times. I try to avoid being certain about things but I have a lot to learn and to see. I will think about my ground game some more and look into Kung Fu and Taiji principles for dealing with it. Then I will find a way to test it.
Last edited by John the Monkey mind on Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Web based instruction.

Postby Windrider » Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:02 am

Yes, John. Any martial artist who really puts himself into it for a long time is going to be difficult to fight.
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Re: Web based instruction.

Postby Windrider » Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:24 am

John the Monkey mind wrote:I have known grappler of little ability to arrantly assume they can beat traditional martial artists because they don't rule the UFC. I could see a good striker beating a lot of local big mouths on the mat. Still it is best to avoid such things I guess.


It's usually the big mouths who so desperately spend their time trying to "prove" something, who really have the least to prove. They should, instead, spend their time actually developing themselves instead of trying to elevate their frail reputations by tearing others down with words and rash, ill-informed conclusions.

This is my main distaste for the games and the gamers. There is NOTHING you can tell them, because even reality can't tell them a thing. And they have EVERYTHING to tell you, as if their cries and shouts could change the reality that stings them so.

It is best, sir, to avoid such things, as you say, but sometimes such things come after you and follow you around. It is so annoying to have to deal with the trivial and silly when there are genuine pursuits that offer so much excellence and beauty in this world.

Thanks again, for your thoughtful consideration.

Well met.
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Re: Web based instruction.

Postby John the Monkey mind » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:09 pm

Windrider wrote:
John the Monkey mind wrote:I have known grappler of little ability to arrantly assume they can beat traditional martial artists because they don't rule the UFC. I could see a good striker beating a lot of local big mouths on the mat. Still it is best to avoid such things I guess.


It's usually the big mouths who so desperately spend their time trying to "prove" something, who really have the least to prove. They should, instead, spend their time actually developing themselves instead of trying to elevate their frail reputations by tearing others down with words and rash, ill-informed conclusions.

This is my main distaste for the games and the gamers. There is NOTHING you can tell them, because even reality can't tell them a thing. And they have EVERYTHING to tell you, as if their cries and shouts could change the reality that stings them so.

It is best, sir, to avoid such things, as you say, but sometimes such things come after you and follow you around. It is so annoying to have to deal with the trivial and silly when there are genuine pursuits that offer so much excellence and beauty in this world.

Thanks again, for your thoughtful consideration.

Well met.


Still I have known a few ground fighters who love their art and love to push them-self with a good spirit. They light up when they talk about their art and love the strategic element of the game. If it makes them happy that is a good thing.
I think more of the traditional jujitsu guys are positive like this as they have a love for the history and art of what they do and are not trying to be a living legend of the octagon.

I guess it depends who you meet and at what time in their life. I hope to meet many people of good hart who are open in interpretation of what they do. If they are wrestlers or jujitsu players or even Brazilian Jujitsu players all the better.

In martial arts circles you tend to meet a lot of really good people and a lot of arrogant and aggressive fools. It seems to polarise people over time. Luckily I have a low profile so people from outside the traditional martial arts don't even know I train apart from a few. As for the few sportsmen who know I never say I am anything other than basically competent and the good ones among them leave me alone or compare notes, sadly I have had the odd word that I am wasting my time from other less enlightened sportsmen.

I have seen how high profile instructors can catch challenges and idiocy from big heads. I guess that's the risk of running a class. I have seen men come into a training space and then try to test out the instructor wile either playing up what they do and trying to goad them into sparing or saying they know nothing wile trying to find weakness in the instructor to mock. Sadly my home city in England has a lot of this behaviour unproductive as it is. There is also a lot of inter-gym rivalry I have once or twice been wrongly identified as being in an opposing camp when someone has mentioned to a "martial artist" that a share what should be a common interest with them (this is usually tied up with the type of gym that offers kick-boxing-kung fu and other assorted flash) and got some hostility as a result. I was never part of the local mega clubs and avoid most of the bickering.
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