taiji and jkd

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taiji and jkd

Postby Josh Young » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:15 pm

clark40 wrote:It's been well known for years that the 1 inch punch is based on the mechanics of the Taiji punch with fajin ... Bruce also meditated and had some element of Qigong in his training so he was well aware of other styles and Taijiquan was one of them. The whole principle of remaining soft until the point of impact and snapping the punch like the tip of a whip is pure Taijiquan. His descriptions of keeping the fist relaxed and loose is exactly how we have our Taiji fist at all times ... this is what he took from Taijiquan and borrowed into JKD.


Bruce Lee was also trained in WC, Wing Chun, a version of White Crane, which contains the basic punching stuff, including the 1 inch punch and methods used by Mr. Lee. I'd wager most of his punch method comes from this and not taijiquan at all.

In my own research and experience there is nothing like Bruce Lee's 1 inch punch in any taiji form I have seen. However Wing Chun does have it.

As far as taiji remaining soft and then snapping like a whip, that isn't in any taiji I know of. However I do not count the WTBA as teaching taiji, rather their stance and main basic methods are very much Wing Chun/White Crane.

Taiji is way more profound and subtle with kinetic energy, it remains soft, lacking the whip like snap that comes from the return of the fist after reaching the apex of the motion, because it doesn't have the return motion in and of itself. In taiji the motion is never made from intention or reflex, there is no taiji punch with any consistent form/method. Taiji does teach a counter, via listen, adhere, stick, follow, which exploits whip like punches and punchers for having made the mistake of committing to a method or worse, a reflex!!!

You will find many "styles" of taiji which incorporate exotic energies into the forms, some of these use the energies found in Shaolin type martial arts, or White Crane/Wing Chun, and they are not ineffective, but they are not taiji. The difference between real taiji skill and modified taiji skill is profound. A basic whip-punch method can be learned in weeks, it is great for self defense because a beginner can pick it up and use it in a short time, this makes it practical, but it isn't real taiji by any means. Aside from the taiji principals that it breaks in terms of motion, the way it transmits force is profoundly different, as is the source of the force transmitted.

I love the 1 inch punch. I am better at it than any person i have met face to face. Who needs an inch? i can do it on contact, using a shaking jing, but it isn't taiji.

Fajin is a funny term, it has Erle written all over it.

:roll:
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Postby yat_chum » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:59 am

It's been well known for years that the 1 inch punch is based on the mechanics of the Taiji punch with fajin.
clark40

Hi clark40, what is your evidence base for this? Much of the theory from Bruce's JKD comes from Wing Chun Kuen including the one inch punch? Are you therefore suggesting that Wing Chun is derived from Taiji? How do you know that Taiji theory doesn't come from Wing Chun? Although I would suggest that any similarities are just convergent evolution.
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Postby yat_chum » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:03 am

Hi Josh, see what do you make of this?
Sifu Glenn Hairston demonstrates the Taiji punch
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=0KAT2NQ9ynk
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Postby Josh Young » Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:50 am

That looks a lot like a White Crane based movement technology to me. It also looks like effective material.

Chen style does have the same jing, but Chen is, according to their own history, a compilation of diverse methods. It draws from several martial art aspects to be what it is, including Dao-Yin and Shaolin. I view it as influenced heavily by taiji, but not as pure taiji and certainly not as ancestral to taiji in any way, rather taiji, or what we call taiji today, is something that the Chens drew from to form their own respectable and effective martial art.
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Postby nitsuj » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:12 pm

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Postby nitsuj » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:16 pm

compare to this....

http://youtu.be/Jeg_5bba6-M


looks like fajin principles that were discussed in the previous vid--- though i could be totally wrong...
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Postby John the Monkey mind » Sat Jul 02, 2011 11:55 am

nitsuj wrote:compare to this....

http://youtu.be/Jeg_5bba6-M


looks like fajin principles that were discussed in the previous vid--- though i could be totally wrong...


Seeing that video again is just terrible. I could do that on a bad day and I am not that good. Very poor. We do way more powerful pushes or strikes all the time.
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no beef, but...

Postby nitsuj » Sat Jul 02, 2011 2:08 pm

John,
Yeah, that is an absolutely TERRIBLE demonstration of a one inch punch, and I'm sure yours is vastly superior, if not the best ever--- except for Josh's, of course.

Josh, 2 questions:
1. Dr. Yang claims Yang style to be derived from Chen style. How does this differ and/or support from your statement that Chen Style is not "ancestral to taiji in anyway"?

2. What is "real" taiji, since Chen style is, in your opinion, not?
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Postby yat_chum » Sun Jul 03, 2011 4:07 pm

We have discussed the Bruce Lee one inch punch clip before. There should be little or no pushing force with the one inch punch.
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Postby Josh Young » Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:08 pm

nitsuj
you give my one inch punch too much credit

Dr. Yang doesn't make any claims so much as present histories based on published works, which he cites in his bibliographies. I find his works authoritative and informative and don't feel compelled to accept or contest the historical details as he presents them.


Regarding Taiji, The Tai Chi Classic by Wang Tsung Yueh is a good written presentation of the shi san shi or 13 postures that I consider more authentic Taiji.

Regarding the history of the Chen form and the Yang form, if one considers the teachings of the families regarding these forms and how they originated then one must see them as amalgamations of previous material including of Taoist origin. Taiji is in my opinion a very old martial art only recently called taiji, one that was incorporated by the Chens into their own martial art. I have no doubt that Chen style influenced Yang style, but Yang styles are not only different, Yang Luchan trained in more than Chen style martial arts, if indeed he created Yang Style then Chen is an influence upon it but Yang Style cannot be explained in terms of modified Chen style alone in terms of the distinctions between the two and their application.

Chen style is great martial art material, so is Yang Style, but there exist some interesting distinctions in their applications and methods. I do not believe that there is any one authoritative Yang Style, but do believe that there are principals key to something being taiji and again will reffer you to the work of Wang Tsung Yueh.

Regarding punches, there is more than a single type of kinetic impact and transfer of energy, this is like the difference between pushing a bell and ringing a bell, you can do one or the other or even both, but the energies are distinct. With the short distance punches it is ideal to ring the bell but not push the bell. Slap/splash water or push/splash water also is like this distinction.

Taiji isn't a word that the Chens seemed to have used to describe their art.
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thanks

Postby nitsuj » Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:32 pm

Josh, thanks for the detailed answer.
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Postby yat_chum » Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:32 am

Wing Chun 1 inch Punch Explained
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1HSK3nsTqk
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Postby yat_chum » Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:30 pm

What style of Taiji did Bruce Lee's family do?
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Postby Josh Young » Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:46 am

If what i read is correct, and who knows:
Lee Hoi-chuen, who was Bruce Lees father is said to have practiced Wu style. Though I don't know if this is Wu, or Wu-hao or Wu-dang style.
He is said to have taught his son to some degree... I am uncertain if this is accurate though.

there were some complications due to the personality Bruce had and training with his father did not appear to go very far, at some point his father had him train with Liang Zi-peng.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liang_Zipeng

However Zi-Peng trained in Liuhebafa and is said to have trained Hoi-chuen, Bruce's father.

this is interesting as that Liuhebafa is credited with Taoist origin, though the form that Zi-Peng trained was unique:
Although a recognized student of Wu, Liang Zipeng only studied the first half of the Liuhebafa public form called Zhu Ji, and created his own personal second half from knowledge of other styles, thus the difference in his Liuhebafa from the mainstream.


Now this gets more interesting for me, because the founder of Liuhebafa is known by a few names, one being Chen Hsi I:
Chen Hsi I is also in Taoist succession in the (Yin Hsien Pai) (sec; of the hidden immortals) who passed Lao Tzu Taoism down through time and also taught on Mount Wu Tang. He is said to have been the teacher of Huo Lung, who was the teacher of the Chang San Feng, legendary founder of Tai Chi.


My understanding is that San-Feng was taught taiji and did not create it, though it was not called taiji at the time.
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