the ineffectivity of the karate tsuki

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the ineffectivity of the karate tsuki

Postby desa'84 » Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:36 am ... tive4.html

very interesting, this master was REALLY open-minded
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Postby Josh Young » Sat Apr 04, 2009 1:28 pm

I thought this was a very good read.

It reminds me of a man who comes to our taiji sessions who is jujitsu and karate trained. He states that much of the core teaching violates his rules, he is a black belt. However his information is all word of mouth and the push hands reveals more to the story than his mere assertions.

There is this heavy relaxed feeling he is missing out on that allows the impacts to work in a different way, so his blows are not capable of the transmission of force, instead they are reduced to blunt impact as a means of exerting force, which is vastly inferior to actually transmitting force.

Still his teachings have corrupted the moves of at least one of our taiji practitioners who instead of applying taiji principals to karate is applying karate principals to taiji! As you can imagine this results in some very poor comprehension of taiji. An example of this is found in kicks and grabs, which the man does like a karate guy now, not having a clue how to use taiji energies to do them.

Now he teaches applications that use the persons own energy to apply, instead of using the opponents energy! Silly eh?

Neat to read the other articles of that site, I bookmarked it, it seems very good and informative.[/list]
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Postby lilman » Sun Apr 05, 2009 11:45 am

That was a very good read. It reminded me of a couple things.

My teacher always tells us, when we fa jing, put our whole soul into it. The fa must kill the opponent or its a waste.
It also reminded me of a family friend who studied karate. He done a form of iron body where he would get hit, try sustain no physical damage. I watched his teacher break 3 inch bamboo poles on his stomache. When the poles split, he would get whipped. Not a single mark. Well one day he got jumped by 3 people.the broke his ribs, have him a concussion, and put him in ICU for 3 weeks.
My teachers primary style is hun ga and practices iron wire. He got a tattoo, and didn't bleed. The tattoo artist had to change his needle 9 times before he was done. It looked as though it was drew on with pen.
The point of the story is karate was useless and didn't work when needed. The student has to get in a specific stance and perform correctly which isaislly takes time. All my teacher had to do was relaxe. The qi did the rest.
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Postby Josh Young » Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:34 pm

I think the Okinawan arts are rather effective and the measure can never be of the arts; only of the person.

Karate is like any other tool, it can be used well or it can be used not so well.
The idea that there is not going to be someone out there who is bigger, faster, stronger or better than us is one we are going to have to reject if we are serious about martial arts. There is no perfect fighter or martial art it is all far too subjective to think of it in absolute terms. It is unrealistic, maybe even foolish to even expect that a fighter who has never been defeated cannot be defeated. Our best and worst teachers are the same as the students, only human.

The karate articles remind me of this and connect me to the human story through the experiences of real people. I could never seek to denigrate their experiences or the opinions they obtained through them by a rote dismissal of their art, which as served them well in times of strife and of peace. At the same time there is variation among karate schools and individual results vary as well, I find some transmissions to be far more effective than others and expect that others do as well.

Even if they are pursing an art I dislike I also have to give credit to people who are doing it, actually putting in the effort to better themselves or their skill. There is the saying, i believe it is common in both the East and the West; work is virtue.

For the record there is no martial art I dislike, but there are energies and movement technologies that don't earn my favor. For example I don't like impacts, I much prefer transmitting force to blunt trauma, but that is likely related to my preference for taijiquan.
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Postby Ralteria » Sun Apr 05, 2009 8:04 pm

Having studied Shotokan Karate-do for several years I have to say the same as Josh. It's all in the hands of the practitioner and it has a lot to do with the received transmission.

Juding from many Karateka I've seen and talked with, I would not be surprised if it is more of the later than the former.

Here are some good application demontrations from my favorite Kata (and the only kata I still practice)

This one is from the JKA (Japanese Karate Association) and was the bunkai I was originaly taught.

The difference is rather easy to notice. It could be easily said that one is more indoor and the other more general student populace but I think that is a load of bull. Like many martial arts in the first half of the 1900's, they gain in A LOT of popularity but lost a lot in the process. I think alot of people are waking up, looking around and wondering where the real martial went in their martial art.

I don't think Master Egami was open minded, really, as much as he was honest with himself. Alot of us are given direction by their teacher/instructors and we never question the why's or how's and while we preserve what they teach us, we never grow as martial artists and the art itself stays dead. A martial art surviving for several hundred years (up until these days at least) survived b/c it was effective. If what you are practicing is not effective, you are not absorbing the teaching in an applicable way or the trasmission you are receiving is diluted. I think Dvivid has an excellent quote in his signature from Dr. Yang about being logical and scientific in your study. I think this is especially true nowadays when most of us aren't required to "put our money where our mouth is".
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Postby yeniseri » Mon May 11, 2009 9:31 am

Transmission in all arts of yore has been suspect but it seems that those who have truly analyzed their art, instead of regurgitating what people say, they end up being the best they want to see in their art.
Kanazawa was the same way! When he started to study taijiquan, he was shunned by the Shotokan establishment but when he went to Okinawa, he found that the Okinawan arts (named after thier respective cities, i.s. naha-te, shuri-te, etc) retained much of their original characteristics compared to the Japanese influenced punch and kick scenarios.

The more learned the practitioner, the more they incorporated/retained aspects of tuite and kyushi-jitsu so the art retained its longevity.
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Karate in UFC

Postby Ralteria » Sun May 24, 2009 1:01 pm

A primarily Karate stylist just won the light heavyweight belt in the UFC. I haven't seen the fight so I'm not sure how "traditional" he is per se'.

While it's sportfighting it's a pretty intresting read regardless

"Machida's unique style is based on the hybrid karate style created by his father Yoshizo, who came to Brazil from Japan when he was 22 to test his karate skills.

Just five foot six, Machida Sr. adapted his own form of karate to combat bigger men. Plus it was based on times gone by, when opponents wielded a sword. One touch could be fatal. Lyoto Machida uses foot movement to avoid contact, ghosting in and out while looking for openings for his precise striking"

and just b/c it's a great video:

Kanazawa vs Enoeda (It looks likes gloveless sparring, possibly full contact and not point sparring). I'm not sure if Kanazawa had trained Yang style Taijiquan at this point. I believe Kanazawa is the one who fights with his hands downward (I'm judging thats him by the *mop* hair cut I've seen from pictures)


*edited for a busted link, unclear sentences and a runon*
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Postby Josh Young » Sun May 24, 2009 1:31 pm

:shock: :) :wink:
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Postby Seiji » Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:08 pm

Well... I guess this proves that some of the "nonsense" found in books like The Training Methods of the 72 Arts of Shaolin aren't nonsense.

I'm glad to see a performance like this. Despite his obvious finger skill, he moves very quickly.
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